What it means to be Blue.

[Phantom]

I agree with you AR. I just have one question; you put Andoria's Sun in the Red class, I buy your "darkroom" concept, my questions is could the idea of Blue-White Star work similarly if Andoria was placed further out? The reason I ask is the "side view" map of the Andoria System has Andoria as the third from last planet in the system, if I read the system stats right some 298.9 AUs from the B2 III star (somewhat out in left field. ). Now I have only the slighest amauter training in Astronomy, but at that distance even with a "bright" star (I assume that I am right that the bluer the star the hotter it burns?) the planet wouldn't receive that much light.

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In the Praetors Name!

[Thundergod]

Copper based Blood is BLUE!!!!!!!!!!!
The Horseshoe crab is a copper based blood carrier and it has blue blood. I would venture to say that the whole cobalt copper thing came from a sereis made in 65 with no special attention paid to the biological sciences, which have by the way exploded in magnatude since then.
A noprize might suggest that both Andorians and Vulcans have copper based blood, but that the coloration comes from various nutrients. Maybe Vulcans compensate for a lack of phytogyns by creating there own enternally, thusly getting a green hue to their blood. And as for The Andorians, I think Im going to settle with copper based blood, with high concentrations of cobalt. I love the darkroom planet, but I dont think that it would prove to be dramatically cold. That is to say that Trek is drama first science second. The Utopia Planetia in Voyager was over a fake mars, as the producers didn't think the real mars was photogenic enough. I think that they would go with the further out white blue cold world first.
AN AU is the distance from the earth to the sun and back isn't it? Phantom, is Andor even in the solar system at that distance. Solar distance is so big its hard to grasp it. Hek that might just be a hop skip and a jump as systems go.

[Captain Blake]

Truth, I had forgotten about the Horseshoe crab.

I dug out my old General Chemistry textbook:

Copper exists in the aqueous solutions as the Cu +2 ion, which is blue.

Copper Nitrates are blue as well.

Copper Ammoniates are blue/violet.

Copper Hydroxides are blue as well.

Copper Oxide is black.

So, if Vulcans have copper blood, then it should be blue, not green.

As a note, Cobalt +2 in an aqueous solution is red. As is it's nitrate and ammoniate.

Tetrahedral Cobalt ion complexes are blue, octahedral complexes (most aqueous) are red.

Cobalt oxide is a olive green color, however.

So, if they have some sort of oxy-protein to function as an oxygen carrier, then the Vulcans could have green blood, with Cobalt.

Apparently Gene had it backwards.

Looking at the K3 (All the spaces around the molecule are bound with the ligand) formation constants for 1,10 phenanthroline (a chelating molecule that uses two nitrogen molecules as the binding constant--it's as close to a porphyrin structure as I can lay my hands on right now.)

K3 for Fe(III) == 1.26 x 10^14
K3 for Cu (II) == 1.05 x 10^5
K3 for Co (II) == 2.40 x 10^6

Iron is 8 to 9 orders of magnitude better at binding things than either copper or cobalt. Explains why we have Iron based blood.
____

Ok, now to try to come up with a solution that fits canon, and still works.

Apparently Andorian blood at the very least has tetrahedral Cobalt complexes in it to carry oxygen. It would have to have a more alcohol/organic blood system to support the tetrahedral complexes. Whereas our blood is mostly water, the Andorian blood would be alcohol based.

As a note, alcohol freezes at a lower level, so that's the anti-freeze that exists in the Andorian blood system.

Now, to try to come up with an explanation for the Vulcans....

Alex

[Phantom]

Like I said "way to over analyzied". Jeez, guys.

Well while everyone is at it I might just as well pipe in with something of my own. Vulcans come from a planet that absorbs a great aomount of heat, light and radiation from its sun. Vulcan physiology has compensated for this by an inner eye lid, so if these facors are so high then why are most Vulcans that are pictured whiter then a Canadaian in January? A fair skinned individual won't last 5 minutes before being burned. Going on realism all Vulcans should be darker skinned, much the people from the Middle East and Africa tp cope.

Just another example of the bad science that has a tendency to haunt Star Trek. The Andorians obviously fall into this category. As to sci fact back in 60s, lets face it Trek was Sci-Fi, no one at the time figured that fans 20-30 yrs later would try and explain what they had created.

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In the Praetors Name!

[Aldaron]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by tonyg:
Aldaron,

Actually TOS was better researched and ususally put greater emphasis on "good science" than the series that followed.

It just that what was good science in 1965 isn't good science in 2001. And science always took a back seat to story considerations.

BTW- Technically, there is a relationship between magnetic fields and gravity fields. A ship could use an magenetic field as a viable way to increase velocity, especially one using an ion propustion system. Woundn't let you time travel as in TREK, but then nothing else does either (Thats why we call it a TC show).</font>

Say what? The only relationship between EM fields and gravity wells I'm aware of is that a gravity well can distort an EM field.

How could a ship (that wasn't made from 100% ferrous metal!) use a magnetic field to accelerate - especially in anything remotely approaching a similar way to a gravity well?

I'm certainly no physicist, but I'm pretty damn sure electromagnetic fields are completely different from the warping of space-time created by a large mass!

As far as TOS being better researched that TNG...I'm not going to get involved in a long-running debate over it. I grant you TNG was by no means perfect, but I will say (and this is my opinion, of course) that the number of absurdities and episodes leaving me cringing with embarrassment over the scientific faux pas was greatly reduced in TNG - even despite the fact it fan for more than twice as long.

I hate to say this, because 1) I'll probably get flamed and 2) It sounds like I'm speaking ill of the dead (which I am, really), but Gene Roddenberry should have given over all the production activity to others, rather than trying to helm it himself. This is borne out by looking at the concentration of embarrassing episodes in TNG; they are almost exclusively concentrated in the first half of the series - when Gene was still running the show.

Justice, The Royale, Shades of Grey...Catherine Pulaski, Wesley Crusher were all products of Gene's fevered imagination. Once he was out of the way, others were able to prune the series - take the brilliant stuff Gene came up with and get rid of the crap (like Wesley).

Sorry if this is offensive to people, but I really believe Gene Roddenberry held back Star Trek for a long time, trying to conform with TOS too much. It was later that we ended up with the latter half of TNG and DS9 (DS9 would never have come about as it did if Roddenberry was still at the helm!).

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"Every atom in our bodies was forged in the furnace of ancient stars - it is our destiny to return home..."

[Phantom]

Uhh, I'm afraid I have to disagree with you on your points. Namely B&B did some pretty sucky shows (just about anything with the Frengi) as well after Gene was removed from the picture. And why should he have been removed from the series he created? That's like saying that Phantom Menace wasn't that great, get rid of Lucas and let some else take over. Ain't gonna happen. I also doubt that the new guys said "Ok the old man is out of the picture, lets get rid of the nerd on TNG." That is what contracts are for. I'm pretty sure that Will Wheaton wanted to go on to other things.

How would have the DW ended, since Roddenberry seems to have the whole thing planned from the start of the DS9 series?...Remember the Dominion has been around that long. There to is another point of contention, I mean would Roddenberry left the space battles up to the cut and paste guys. The story line for the DW was great, the way it was executed was almost terrible. All the space battles were cut and pasted to the point of absurdity, there were so many starships it looked like the whole of Starfleet participated in each and every battle. Gene was at least interested in what made a half way decent story, B&B did what looked the coolest to try bring the ratings up.



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In the Praetors Name!

[Aedh Rua]

Phantom, I definitely agree with you that we are trying to rationalize the bad science of 30 years ago. But heck, it's just so much fun.

With a sun as bright as it is supposed to be, the Vulcans should be pure fulginous black, in a way not even the darkest African is on Earth.

If Andoria really is 298 AUs out from its parent star, then it is going to be very dark, indeed. That might well be the solution: a weak blueish light which requires no pigmentation.

Thundergod, if we take the idea of a red darkroom planet, however, we can indeed have a world which is dramatically cold. Here's how: a dimmer star, of any color, will of necessity have a thinner life belt. That is, the area in which the star can support life will be narrower. A narrower area will mean greater temperature gradations from the inner to the outer edge. Now, this means that the likelihood of any kind of temperature extremes for habitable worlds increases as the magnitude of a star goes down. So, a dim, type M star will be more likely to have a world either much hotter or colder than Earth.

Apparently, Andoria is on the outer edge of the lifebelt.

In the LUG sources, it is stated that the Andorian "year" is right around 300 days. To his credit, S. John realized that that would not work with a hot, white star, and so he invoked patterns of ocean currents and volcanic activity to explain Andorian seasonal change. This would not be necessary if we assume a type M star rather larger than Sol, but still dimmer. Then, we could have an Andoria which is a little farther from its primary than Venus is from Sol, but is quite a bit colder than Earth.

I guess it works either way. A blue-white star which is little more than a point in the sky might produce a cold and dark Andoria, but so might a red star which is actually fairly large in the sky, but not very hot. In either case, pigmentation is superfluous, antennae are needed to get around, and antifreeze is very good for the blood.

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Slan agat!

[Phantom]

And I concur with you AR, it can be fun. But going to the extent of Chem texts?!? Even I don't try to rationalize things that much, and "theoretical" science is of a great interest to me.

To the others out there don't take what I say the wrong way. I like the way the Andorians are protrayed in the book, bad science aside, if you think they are better as "horseshoe crabs"...Well its your world isn't it.

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In the Praetors Name!

[Thundergod]

Captain Blake...Kudos my man, that was awesome. This is what sci fi is all about, the understanding of what is possible, what might be.
Gene Rodenberry...Bite your tounge boy, Gene was all about a vision, a vision of a better future where mankind had taken a step up. Starfleet officers were made of the same stuff as us, only molded in a way that made them see things we cannot. It was a better future. When he left that future dimmed.
Vulcans and the sun....Go with the chloriphyl in the blood, makes it green and absorbs light through the translucent skin to convert to energy for the cells. Solar babies with more strength and endurance than humans.
Dark Andor...The antennae would help them see by picking up magnetic resonance or bio organic res. But wouldn't they have bad eye sight to have evolved there?
Cheesy spot...Go to Lcarscom.net and see Star Trek the Virtual Series. It has neat pictures.

[Aedh Rua]

This discussion is really beginning to get interesting. As I see it, we can go three ways with Andorian blood:

1. We could have it copper based, but blue, presumably because the porphyrin ring used by Andorians is slightly diffrerent from that used by Vulcans.

2. We could have it be a cobalt porphyrin ring. The big drawback here is that it isn't very likely that something like this would actually work.

3. We could have copper based blood, with cobalt in it somehow as antifreeze. This has a number of advantages: it explains the blue color rather well, and it also tells us how skinny guys with antennae could live in any kind of even chilly climate without severe frostbite and/or hypothermia problems.

This allows us to keep most of the background from Among the Clans, which is a good idea. I hope the writers at Paramount have read it, too.

The one bit of Among the Clans background which must be changed is that pesky white sun. To be fair, S. John didn't create the white sun, he got stuck with it when someone put it into Worlds of the Federation.

Anyway, consider: Andorians have skin and eyes exactly the color of their blood. They have white hair. This means they have no pigmentation at all; they are a race of albinos. They also have antennae, to use as an extra sense. Clearly, they evolved in a low-light environment.

That they did shouldn't be too surprising, actually. Dim, red, type M stars are really, really common. At least some of them must have inhabitable planets. So, I would assume that Andoria orbits a type M star, probably very closely. The result is daylight of a dim-redness similar to that of an old-fashioned darkroom. The plants must be better able to photosynthesize than ours, and are probably dark blue or even black in color.

Now, Andorian blue skin would look black in red light, so Andorian life-form generally must not need pigmentation to match the local greenery, er, blue-blackery.

I suspect that given their cold, dark home Andorians do have blood vessels of some kind. The blood vessels are just buried under the muscles for insulation and protection. Open circulation models just couldn't keep up with the needs of a large organism in a cold climate.

Other than this, Among the Clans works exactly as is........

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Slan agat!

[This message has been edited by Aedh Rua (edited 09-07-2001).]

[Phantom]

This is great! On one hand we have someone who see the Andorians are horseshoe crabs, now we have somone who says the Vulcans are plants!?!

It is amazing how these conversations can take some wierd turns.

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In the Praetors Name!

[Thundergod]

Science fiction starts with Science fact.

[Aldaron]

You know, there's a saying my wife has: "Count to 10 before you say something - that way, you're less likely to say something you'll regret."

Guess I should listen to her, eh?

Seriously - look, I said what I said the wrong way. For any offence I caused, I do apologise: I even said in my post "I'll probably get hammered over this" or somesuch - should listen to my own advice, I guess.

Guys - don't get me wrong re: Gene Roddenberry. I do think the man was amazing. The vision he had was wonderful, and it's for that reason, and that reason alone that ST remains my fave SF show - even moreso than Babylon 5 (and trust me, that means a lot, coming from me!).

Gene's vision of the future was the cause of the ST effect, and for that I am eternally grateful.

My point was merely that Gene did start doing the show back in the 60s, to appeal to a 60s American audience. I believe the downside was that later on, he kept that "60s-middle-America-audience-pleaser" as the show's basis. The ideas that there shouldn't be serious conflict within the Federation, for example, or that Starfleet officers shouldn't be at odds with one another.

Phantom - I hate to tell ya this, but DS9 came about long after Gene had passed away. Gene died about halfway thru TNG (mid fourth season, IIRC); DS9's first season was concurrent with TNG's 6th, when Gene had been dead for some time.

Considering the Dominion wasn't even mentioned until (at the earliest) late first season DS9, and didn't become obvious until well into the second season - I don't think he had much to with it at all.

As far as our aesthetic appreciation of DS9, well I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, but that's cool.

Again - my apologies if I sounded harsh. Wasn't trying to offend - I've just gotta learn to bite my tongue from time to time!

"Mea Culpa"

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"Every atom in our bodies was forged in the furnace of ancient stars - it is our destiny to return home..."

[Phantom]

Aldaron:

My statement was not meant as a flame. And I did have my dates wrong for Gene's death and the beginning of DS9.

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In the Praetors Name!

[Thundergod]

okay okay the man has passed on and we miss him much, But this is about the Andorians and what it means tobe BLUE.
What was roddenberry thinking when he created the Andorians, does anyone have a clue?