What it means to be Blue.

[Captain Blake]

Um, Phantom, as a note, IRL, I'm a Chemist. All I did was check a few facts with an appropriate reference text which sits next to my computer, since it's been a while since I had to teach General Chemistry.

I could have sworn that there was a green copper chelate, but I'll be danged if I can find it. The one I was thinking of was a Ni compound.

As far as Andorians go, I don't even know if the whole cobalt blood thing is screen canon at all. I know it's Lug Canon, so that's why I proposed the tetrahedral cobalt alcohol/organic based blood.

Although, upon further reflection, that may not work, unless the organic fluid used like blood plasma stabilizes the oxygen to carbon dioxide conversion, tetrahedral cobalt doesn't seem like it would have all that much oxygen affinity.

So, it might be better to have a Copper or Iron based system, and have the large amounts of Cobalt be some sort of anti-freeze, or perhaps some sort of alternate oxygen transfer system.

They have a crab like capilary system for the cobalt "blood" and a more usual iron system for internal organs.

Hey if the Klingons can have redundant organs, the Andorians can have redundant oxygen transfer systems.

About the only thing I could come up with for Vulcans (why aren't they black and why do they have green copper blood?) is that we're dealing with some other protein compound, that protects the Vulcan from the light.

Basically, like Andorian blood has anti-freeze properties (cause with no light it's going to be a little cold), Vulcan blood has sunscreen properties.

Whatever this compound is, it protects the Vulcan's skins, and makes their blood green.

I'm a physical chemist, not an organic chemist, so if anyone else has any ideas, I'm open to suggestions.

Alex

[Phantom]

IRL??

I wasn't knocking anyones profession or ability, what I was trying to convey was "are we not over analyzing this?"

Aren't we debating a rather small point of the Andorians. Physiology is interesting, but there is more to a cultrue then what the people are made of.

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In the Praetors Name!

[Captain Blake]

Well, some people relate everything that a person is to physiology.

Brain chemistry abnormalites cause behavioral problems, etc.

As a note, the more wacked out the biochemistry, the more problems that will crop up between Andorians and outside races.

But, yeah, we're probably overanalyzing it.

Vulcans have copper blood (with stuff in it to make it green), and Andorians have cobalt blood (with stuff in it to make it blue). Ok, I'm done.

Andorians come from a dark planet far away from it's white star. Their eyes should be weak, but their senses of smell and hearing are much better.

So, what does everyone think of their sense of Taste?

Dogs have a great sense of smell, but they don't have a good sense of taste (I have a buddy that works in pet products, in case you wonder how I know).

I ask this because most of this world's cold cultures eat a lot of bland foods (spices don't grow, and you need the extra calories to keep warm).

If their taste sense is too good, then small amounts of spices are good enough. Andorian food (which depending on how much Cobalt is in everything, could be fatal to humans) could be bland, because the Andorians have a good enough sense of taste to pick out the subtle things that humans miss completely.

If they have a bad sense of taste, then they may heavily spice things. Or, they may just not bother. It kind of depends.

Any comments?

Alex

[Phantom]

Ok, another good question.

Assuming LUG info as canon, since there is very little else ot go on, Among the Clans states that the mean average temp of Andoria is -9.3 C, but that is because of the premature "ice age" the planet is currently experiencing without the glacial shift that average global temp is -1.0C (cold, but not excessively). This of course is the opinion of a Canadian remember.

As to taste, I reference Among the Clans again; "The native cuisines of Onshoma, for example, are excessively salty-which to the Andorian taste receptors produce a sensation comparable in somw ways to spicy peppers in Earth food! To the Andorian palate, salt is a challenging, brisk flavour, clean and powerful, and frequently overdone in the name of machismo..."

"...some very popular Andorian favourites (such as Irinari Drunken insects-a sample platter of live bugs swimming in sweet Agranu wine, eaten whole)..."

Then there are the simpler hearty "peasent foods" designed to keep one alive during the cold.

Plus there is a spice mentioned in Among the Clans, I can't find it right now, that the Andorians favour. The spice seems to be thought of as a very flavorful spice by half the inhabitants of the galaxy, and a deadly poison to the other half. No mention of what it tastes like to the Andorians.

Again, probably alot of "bad science".

Have at it.

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In the Praetors Name!

[Thundergod]

I dont think its an over analysis if one of your characters is a doctor or an andorian. For a main member race they are rare, but much should be known about them. The salt thing is interesting. Humans taste 'hot' items becuase of the protiens in the peppers. I wonder if Salt is acidic to the blueones.

[Phantom]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Thundergod:
I dont think its an over analysis if one of your characters is a doctor or an andorian. For a main member race they are rare, but much should be known about them. The salt thing is interesting. Humans taste 'hot' items becuase of the protiens in the peppers. I wonder if Salt is acidic to the blueones. </font>

I suppose. The narrator has to get as much info for players as he can, it's just a little more in depth then I would go. But then I'm not a science type.



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In the Praetors Name!

[Captain Blake]

Thanks Phantom, saved me from having to look it up.

So, apparently Andorians have a similar taste range as humans. Cool.

If Andorians have a wierd enough biochemistry to have blue cobalt blood, that would mean that most things would be different taste wise, I would think.

So, what we consider Salty, they consider peppery.

What we would consider Sweet, they would consider Hot, maybe?

(I just deleted a long and involved paragraph or ten on solution chemistry, based on differences between organic and aqueous chemistry--I came to no conclusions)

As a note, most Andorian dishes would probably at the very least cause digestive upset, and may well be fatal to most humanoids. The thing about a particular spice may well hold true for all types of food.

Andorian Tourist Joke: "Hey, feed the Humans some Theoldoni (sp?) with Bear Fat. Let's take bets on how long it takes him to head for the rest room."

And of cource, it's probably the same in reverse. An Andorian shoveling down Hot Wings at the local pub is probably in for a world of hurt when they don't digest right.

As a note, that explains why we don't see Andorians very often. Logistically, you'd have to have a separate food source for them, and unless you have a large enough population it's just not worth it. It feeds into the clanish nature of the Andorians.

Replicators make this easier, of cource. And with work you could have Andorian and Human versions of an Andorian dish. The Human version would taste like the Andorian version, but wouldn't be fatal.

Hmmm, my Human raised on Andor has a new skill to get.

Alex

[This message has been edited by Captain Blake (edited 09-10-2001).]

[flip]

I just read the new DS9 novel series, and apparently they will be using Andorians extensively (one of the leads is a science officer attending the Academy with Nog)

Im concerned, although it was a well written book, it'll toss out a lot of Among the Clans, another well done, detailed work.

Two differences:
Andorians hate the cold. Most races hating the cold come from warmer worlds (Vulcans, Klingons) or semi reptilian (Cardassian). Or we can still think of Andor as a frigid world
but slowly warmed through technology or changes in orbit. "I can deal with the cold, i just dont like it." (Its summer here, even Ontario thaws out eventually)

AtC explains marriages of four as two pairs, a male/female couple paired with another couple, and they all share responsibilities.
interesting set up. Avatar had Andorians having four sexes, where the sex can be determined by the prefix in a name, but doesnt go in depth.

Im confused.

As for the majority of onscreen Vulcans being white (jokes about Canadians aside), perhaps the majority of radiation is blocked out, allowing Vulcan to develop melanin or equivalent skin chemicals like Earth.

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"Mission? what mission?"
"Save the galaxy."
"AGAIN?!?!?!?!"

[Aedh Rua]

As far as semi-toxic Andorian food goes, theldoni may be the exception that proves the rule. It is the only form of Andorian food ever eaten by humans in an episode, and we don't know that any bear fat was included.

Tuber roots should be like potatoes, a basic starch, with few other proteins, amino acids, and so on. As a result, they may be one of the two or three Andorians foods that most aliens can eat without getting sick.

'Course, soon as you put some bear fat and spice on it, then there are complex cobalt-rich proteins which will indeed send an alien running for the bathroom!

As a side note, almost all food will do this to alien species, though perhaps not to the same extent. There is plenty of evidence that humans can eat Vulcan and Klingon food, for instance. However, I doubt that humans could live a long time on Vulcan food, say, without nutritional supplements. The two biochemistries should be similar, but not so similar to meet all of the other species' nutritional requirements.

In a FASA campaign may years ago, I introduced a Vulcan drink, non-alcoholic, which was very tasty to Vulcans, but happened to be an iron leech. If a human drank too much of it, it could be fatal. I always thought it might have some use in a plot, but nothing came of it.

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Slan agat!

[Phantom]

A joke mentioned in AtC is to give a human a bowl of, whatever, heaping with 'salt' and laugh while he gropes for a galss of water.

As to humans eating other cultures food; Klingon food-I would think it would be ok for other races as it is mainly a meat diet, you just have to be able to catch it before you eat it.

As to other races, as long as the nutriants in the soil are similar I think it would sustain a human for awhile-just taste kind of strange.

[Captain Blake]

flip,

Hence the problem with using the Novels in any shape, matter, way or form.

IMO, that writer is full of crap. If Andorians had four sexes, it would have been mensioned in Next Gen, at least in Data's day when he commented on studying marriage customs. He talked about Andorians marrying in groups of 4, nobody said, "But that makes sense because they have four sexes." It looked to me like nobody had considered the 4 person possibility, not that there were 4 sexes.

Of cource, YMMV. I don't use the novels as any sort of canon, personally. Hell, I can't even finish reading most of them.
____

Ok, so, so far, we have Cobalt Organic blooded Andorians, from a colder, darker place, with poor eyes, but good hearing and smell, but human equivalent taste.

Their foods, in particular protein structures, are at the very least, nauseating, and possibly fatal to most humanoids.

Likewise, the reverse is true, Andorians couldn't digest most proteins from non-Andorian sources.

Good summary? Or did I leave anything out?

What's next on the Agenda?

Alex

[Aedh Rua]

'Bout right. I think we need to agree to leave whether the blood is really cobalt BASED as something vague, but it sure as heck has cobalt in it in some capacity.

Likewise, whether Andoria is cold, dark, and red, or cold, dark, and blue is less important than that it is cold and dark, (or cool and dark if you are from the North Country).

The only things we have here that really challenge LUG orthodoxy are that Andorian food can hurt you, and that Andorian eyes are weak, but they both make so much logical sense that I, at least, will include them.

Besides, weaknesses can be excellent plot-devices. "Hey Thelin, do you see that?" "See what?" BOOM!

You see what I mean.......

In a way, the Andorians are a species which physically, or at least biochemically, define the outer limits of the term "humanoid". Oddly, they do not psychologically. They are a lot more human-acting than Vulcans or Klingons......

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Slan agat!

[This message has been edited by Aedh Rua (edited 09-10-2001).]

[Thundergod]

I concur with the Summary. But a new point was brought up. what about marriages. I think the four sex thing is odd. Is it replicated anywhere in nature? Not that Earth biology dictates anything, but it usually works for a good comparison. As for as I know there are only four known sexes, but none interbreed as a requirement of reproduciton. It would however limit offspring, complex mating rituals that is. Another reason for no Andorians. They just don't reproduce as much as humans. The four sexes I know are, Male, Female, A-sexual, and bi-sexual(hermaphrodite). And thats it, unless you count a pop star with lots of plastic surgurey, I think thats a fifth option.

[Phantom]

Begin mini-rant

Andorians get married in groups of fours, that is female-male + female-male. It has been stated in TNG as such. They DON"T have four sexes...that is just plain stupid. Lately this point has been upsetting me more then Ent. IT's two couples, not four sexes.

Rant over.

What's next? How about social behaviour?

Andorians being a social race require that more then one Andorian has to be serving with him (preferably his family unit)...if the Andorian is the only one on a ship then his efficency drops rather quickly and he can become "moody". Even "socialized" Andorians need the company of their own kind from time-to-time.

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In the Praetors Name!

[toadkiller]

I was on my own when I set game canon but it falls out pretty similiar:

"different" blood than humans or vulcans, but mine are more like mammals than what you have listed above. For example mine are endothermic, but able to stablize at more than one core tempreture - if they are in a low activity mode in a cold environment they can allow their temperature to drop to save energy - it then comes back up if they increase activity or go to a warmer place (various real life animals do this, hummingbirds for example). This is somewhat controllable (a bit more so than heart rate). They often experience increased aggression in "warm" environments but that levels out over time.

Bear live young - cannot "crossbreed" in any meaningful way with other Fed species - but hey, we can still date....

Good hearing - a "targeting" sense.
Good enough vision to function in human society, but not great distance vision.
Smell/taste/touch - nominal.

Food - I've never had an Andorian PC in the game for more than a couple of sessions so it hasn't been a huge deal, they like avocados (for no good reason) and tend to eat things like avocado ice cream.

Tend to be thin, willowy, beings with decent strength, better than human agility.

Tradition calls for them to "marry" in groups of 4. No more, but less is OK but they are assumed to be "looking for the fourth (or third and fourth)". Basically this is for the same deep meaningful biological reasons that humans can ONLY "marry" in twos - um, wait that's not true....I guess it is just tradition. Although I have hinted that there is a "biological" reason it is more likely simply social and psychological.

I don't make any excuses for why they aren't widely seen in SF. In my fleet they are, roughly on par with the other major races (slightly less so than humans).

And they are blue.

Obviously I made all of the above up (except the blue part) during those dark "pre-LUG" days. Can't really change it at this point but I don't know that any of it is counter to "canon" or even "cannon" as far as the shows go.