Adventure Seeds

[The Tatterdemalion King]

He also brought in psionics, including Vulcan mindmelders and Betazoid empaths and telepaths, who testified that the unborn had their own thoughts, feelings, and distinct personalities.

Which seems to imply that Vulcan and Betazoid cultures also prohibit abortion as a premise of this seed?

What about the centuries-old availability of artificial gestation in the Federation?

[Sarge]

He also brought in psionics, including Vulcan mindmelders and Betazoid empaths and telepaths, who testified that the unborn had their own thoughts, feelings, and distinct personalities.

Which seems to imply that Vulcan and Betazoid cultures also prohibit abortion as a premise of this seed?

What about the centuries-old availability of artificial gestation in the Federation?

Good questions! Hmmm...

I don't know if there's any canon info on reproductive rights on Vulcan or Betazed. If they did practice abortion, they could be dealing with their own cultural upheavals.

As for artificial gestation, I hadn't thought about that at all. It's possible that medical technology could provide a compromise both sides could live with; unwanted pregnancies could be removed from mothers, supported in artificial wombs, and put up for adoption. If the religious leaders that started the whole crisis are sincere in there desires to preserve life, they ought to be willing to provide homes for unwanted children.

Of course, there have to be a few hardliners who can't be reasoned with and have to be phasered into compliance just so the security officers have something to do.

[The Tatterdemalion King]

As for artificial gestation, I hadn't thought about that at all. It's possible that medical technology could provide a compromise both sides could live with; unwanted pregnancies could be removed from mothers, supported in artificial wombs, and put up for adoption.

That's actually what I'd assume would be going on in the first place. But there's a few more worldbuilding questions that need to be asked before getting this to be a workable seed. What are the actual statistics for unwanted pregnancies in the Federation? Other than Sisko missing his shots one month, we haven't seen anything on screen on how often it happens, what methods of contraception are available, and frequency of use. And what contributes social to a pregnancy being wanted or unwanted? Inside the post-class Federation, poverty or access to social care isn't a motivating factor, nor would social shame over sexual activity or lack of a nuclear family environment. It might even be more common for contraceptives to be taken by anyone who's sexually active. In a frontier environment environment this might be different.

Which brings up another subtle but very telling point in 'The Masterpiece Society' when Geordi mentions that he'd have been aborted if conceived in the Moab IV colony. If in post-WWIII Earth society, biotechnology and eugenics seem to be associated with totalitarian politics and invasive technocratic oppression.

[Tobian]

Hmm, this is dangerously close to being heavily politicised and possibly breaking the TOS of the site.

I find the premise highly suspect for one of the core member worlds of the Federation as depicted in the Star-Trek universe. Trek was consistently anti-superstition, secular, and pro-choice. Member worlds of the Federation had to be mostly secular (hence the Bajorans were not eligible for entry under the veddec assembly, only under the secular provisional government). Cultures which were ethically and morally in schism by definition weren't even allowed in to the Federation, they had to have a single one-world government.

With the level of medical technology available to the Federation (people can own their own medical tricorders) abortions would likely be able to be performed at levels considered 'contraception' today and in civilised core worlds contraception would likely be almost foolproof. Arguments such as 'brain function' would be moot on foetuses a few days old. I simply don't see abortion being the issue it is on present day earth, as the core federation was depicted as a happy utopia where everyone was highly educated, with free health care and no equivalents to third world countries or 'deprived areas', any more. I'm not saying that accidents couldn't happen, but I just find it unlikely the federation cultures didn't already have long-since hammered out all of the basic human rights issues hundreds of years since.

In terms of the way culture was shown, such issues would have been long since put to bed on member worlds, so yes, a culture suddenly shifting massively from secularism to religious fundamentalism, sidestepping entirely scientific studies, or programmes to deal with lowering fertility rates etc. would be amazingly alarming, and the kind of thing a crew might investigate! On a personal level too, I think you'd be unwise to run such a game anyway, as pro-life/pro-choice arguments in real life could rapidly get out of control if not everyone thinks along the same lines in your group!

[Sarge]

Hmm, this is dangerously close to being heavily politicised and possibly breaking the TOS of the site.

Yes, that's the point. Old Trek used to take heavily politicised issues and frame them in a way that would get people talking about them and questioning commonly held positions on those controversial topics, and ideally do it in a way that the discussions would be less likely to turn people against each other. Judging by the responses here, I'd say this one is succeeding.

[PGoodman13]

Yes, that's the point.

You're trying to break Terms of Service?

[The Tatterdemalion King]

Member worlds of the Federation had to be mostly secular (hence the Bajorans were not eligible for entry under the veddec assembly, only under the secular provisional government).

That was never stated that I recall; the Vedek Assembly, while politically influential, wasn't actually in political control of anything, and thus simply couldn't function as the planetary government body. Winn becoming First Minister didn't seem to interfere legally with the potential for Federation membership; and she was the one on-screen who was going to sign the membership PADD in 'Rapture.'

Given the variety of cultures within the Federation, I think it would be unwise to assume that governance by what we would define as a 'religious institution' would be enshrined in law as prohibitive factor to admittance. Given the issues with the terminology in human culture, applying it to an alien species seems highly problematic. (And I bet there would be species which point to plenty of human beliefs or political structures as ritualistic or referential towards unreal entities, like 'nations'—especially considering emerging archaeological indicators about the history of settled societies.)

[Tobian]

Given the greater themeing of the show in general (dismissal of supernatural concepts as a fraud) it is highly implied if not specifically mentioned. Indeed elements of their faith, such as the highly discriminatory caste system were specifically listed as a reason they wouldn't be allowed membership. I vaguely recall them saying that in the period before the Cardassians, they were lead by the Vedic assembly and the Kai, but it's been quite a while since I watched DS9, and I might be conflating expanded universe information with show canon.

While I can't see any kind of religious belief in and of it's self being an issue (all sorts of characters had all sorts of beliefs and faiths) it's the specific issue of religious governance, and the negative side effects that can have, that would be an issue. If a planet had a single faith which was entirely tolerant, non-discriminatory, pro choice and fell within the remits of the standard 'human rights' of the Federation, then I don't see it having any issue joining, however, real-world religious governance, on Earth, right now, operate nothing like that: they represent all of the negative reasons that a planet wouldn't have been allowed into the Federation in the first place. Given that it's a sci-fi of course such a religious government COULD exist, but that's not what is being discussed, in this case.

I just find it too far of a stretch that a stable government that was set up for hundreds of worlds, (for several hundred years in the TNG setting) and is a delicate balance of 'human' rights and diplomacy completely forgot to mention abortions, and suddenly realised they were all diametrically opposed on the issue. It's a very raw and real issue for us today, on Earth, because we aren't a happy stable secular utopia with no human rights issues, however in the Startrek universe we are, and have been for hundreds of years, alongside the other core member worlds.

[Sarge]

You're trying to break Terms of Service?

Of course not; I'm saying that there's a place for dealing with highly controversial topics in Trek. By assigning behaviors or traits to different cultures, we can examine them more objectively than we could if we were looking at ourselves.

[Sarge]

I just find it too far of a stretch that a stable government that was set up for hundreds of worlds, (for several hundred years in the TNG setting) and is a delicate balance of 'human' rights and diplomacy completely forgot to mention abortions, and suddenly realised they were all diametrically opposed on the issue. It's a very raw and real issue for us today, on Earth, because we aren't a happy stable secular utopia with no human rights issues, however in the Startrek universe we are, and have been for hundreds of years, alongside the other core member worlds.

That's why I suggested taking a happy stable secular society, and giving it a good shake up. How does the Federation deal with a sudden shift in the culture of long term members in good standing?

[Tobian]

It asks them to leave, because they have broken the conditions of membership, and anyone who wants asylum would likely be granted it (within reason, due to military stand-offs). Meanwhile, apparently unwilling to look into possible medical assistance, the Andorians slowly die out (excluding those who left, who would likely look into a cure), probably compounded with internal civil war and all round tragedy. I find it unlikely that the rest of the Federation would split, because, as I said, they would have long since resolved such issues, and just look on, saddened, as religious zealouts turn innocent girls into baby-making machines. The drama would likely revolve around those who chose not to sit back and do nothing, with armed raids to 'rescue' trapped enclaves, who didn't want to be on Andoria.

Because the federation is built on mutual respect and the belief in self determination and 'human' rights, they would not be able to support a regime set against that, but would neither be able to stop them (you're always free to make bad choices for yourself) and those who didn't like it would go rogue, ala the Maquis, or take umbridge with their political representatives, as they have always done.

Thing is, yes, Trek always did take modern-day stories, but they were very careful to obfuscate it very heavily and make the players sufficiently different as to not make direct paralels. The conditions and parallels were similar but not identical. It's like in the Undiscovered country, yes the Federation was America and the Klingons were the Russians were the Communists, but the direct analogies were pretty much impossible to draw beyond the trite and superficial. If it was in trek, the Andorians would also see the error of their ways and back down, and the wicked religious leader would be unmasked to be old man withers, in the space of an episode, and all would be put back to normal, conveniently, much as the Federation and the Klingons put an end to major hostilities and came as close to peace as they have had, in that film. (unlike modern day cold war hostilities which burned and fizzled for decades, and still do in the hearts and minds of some).

[The Tatterdemalion King]

Given the greater themeing of the show in general (dismissal of supernatural concepts as a fraud)

Well, except for the Traveler, Q, the original plot of the God Machine, Sisko's apotheosis, positive proof of intelligent design (albeit alien), Spock's katra... Trek might be anti-clerical, but it's got a lot of new age-y cosmology floating around.

Indeed elements of their faith, such as the highly discriminatory caste system were specifically listed as a reason they wouldn't be allowed membership. I vaguely recall them saying that in the period before the Cardassians, they were lead by the Vedic assembly and the Kai, but it's been quite a while since I watched DS9, and I might be conflating expanded universe information with show canon.

Having rewatched the episode in a couple months ago, the caste system objection was purely on the basis of its arbitrarily discriminatory and disenfranchising nature; no one said it was because it was was culturally labelled as religious as opposed to political, economic or . If sharing religious and political duties were prohibited in the Federation, T'Pau would never have been offered a seat on the council. And, again, there's plenty of aliens who would point to seemingly-secular human beliefs as bizarre, meaningless rituals they'd be better off without.

I just find it too far of a stretch that a stable government that was set up for hundreds of worlds, (for several hundred years in the TNG setting) and is a delicate balance of 'human' rights and diplomacy completely forgot to mention abortions, and suddenly realised they were all diametrically opposed on the issue.

The most obvious way to metaphoricize the issue, I think, would be to have the events of 'Emergence' start occurring in complex computers across the Federation.

[Tobian]

Well, except for the Traveler, Q, the original plot of the God Machine, Sisko's apotheosis, positive proof of intelligent design (albeit alien), Spock's katra... Trek might be anti-clerical, but it's got a lot of new age-y cosmology floating around.

Yes they had quasi god-like aliens all the time, and each every time they were bested by the crew. They posed as gods but were proven to be very much flawed and fallible. The only ones who were really treated with respect were the wormhole aliens, because they were largely benign and positive. Yes many people had quasi-mystical beliefs, but they were either genuine superscience abilities (like telepathy etc) which were provable and scientific and therefore simply.. science.. or simply personal beliefs, and therefore simply respected as personal beliefs (as modern, educated, and respectful people they respected others rights to believe what they wanted, so long as it didn't impinge on others).

Having rewatched the episode in a couple months ago, the caste system objection was purely on the basis of its arbitrarily discriminatory and disenfranchising nature; no one said it was because it was was culturally labelled as religious as opposed to political, economic or . If sharing religious and political duties were prohibited in the Federation, T'Pau would never have been offered a seat on the council. And, again, there's plenty of aliens who would point to seemingly-secular human beliefs as bizarre, meaningless rituals they'd be better off without.

Yes, they respect and allow for personal beliefs, and don't tread on people's right to self-determination. There's a huge gulf between not allowing religious dogma to lead the Federation's policies and laws, and banning people WITH religious beliefs from office. I see it as (obviously) akin to the tenet of separation of church and state in modern day America. (which you guys theoretically are supposed to have...)

In the case of the Vulcans, they are almost entirely secular. They have a form of ancestor reverence, but that's more akin to the extolation of the virtues of characteristics they admire. Their psionic abilities actually *work* so they aren't quasi-mystical claptrap, they can actually read minds (as opposed to faith healing and spiritualism, which have been exposed as fraud in every single scientific study, here, on earth), so you can't conflate the two.

While the writers of trek often trod lightly on issues of religious belief, it was fairly obviously always anti-religion, and superstitious thinking. 'what would god want me to do' was never a choice a crew member would face. They always had to make their own, often very hard, and derisive, decisions. If they met a 'ghost' or a 'spirit' or a 'god' it always turned out to be an alien or a trick, consistently, throughout the show.

The most obvious way to metaphoricize the issue, I think, would be to have the events of 'Emergence' start occurring in complex computers across the Federation.

That's fair, and more akin to the kinds of issue which sufficiently obfuscates the argument.

[Sarge]

Because the federation is built on mutual respect and the belief in self determination and 'human' rights, they would not be able to support a regime set against that, but would neither be able to stop them (you're always free to make bad choices for yourself) and those who didn't like it would go rogue, ala the Maquis, or take umbridge with their political representatives, as they have always done.
If it was in trek, the Andorians would also see the error of their ways and back down, and the wicked religious leader would be unmasked to be old man withers,

To clarify my original idea, the clerics are not wicked Taliban copies, they are doing their level best to extend mutual respect and self determination and 'human' rights to all beings, whether or not they have been born yet. Both sides of the issue should be thoughtful, reasonable, honest, and respectful. The goal is to get people to see past their preconceptions (pun unintended!) and understand why others sincerely believe differently.

[Tobian]

...by militantly enforcing their agenda, and denying anyone the right to leave their home-world if they disagree...