MVAM Practicality

[Cmdr Powers]

Something that occurred to me the other day (and I apologize if this has already been discussed) is the waste of resources and impracticality of Multi-Vector Assault Mode.

A Prometheus-class breaks into three parts to fight. Each separate part is a relatively decent warship (especially compared to Klingon ships ), but if any single section is significantly damaged, the whole ship is going to have a hard time going back together.

An Akira equipped with 6 Peregrine-class fast attack fighters (see other thread) can launch its fighters for "MVAM" and have one hugely powerful warship flanked by 6 smallcraft with torpedoes just as powerful as any carried on the Prometheus sections. While the Peregrines are easily taken out, it doesn't cripple the Akira to lose any of them and the Akira can take a pile of damage herself.

Starfleet needs to forget MVAM and put out more Akira's and Peregrines. The Prometheus is an interesting experiment, but in the long run its not going to separate any more than Galaxy-class ships do- and for similar reasons.

[qerlin]

I concur...but it looks cool.

[Cmdr Powers]

Originally posted by qerlin
I concur...but it looks cool.

Thank you. Prometheus is pretty. And I think she makes a good addition to the fleet. I just think they should use MVAM about as often as Excelsior used its Transwarp drive.

[Snake_Plissken]

flanked by 6 smallcraft with torpedoes just as powerful as any carried on the Prometheus sections.

I beg to differ... I see fighters in ST as last resort souped-up shuttlecraft. I see them as being useful to fight very small ships (like other shuttlecrafts or scouts) or to be used in ground support. I think that they are only fielded in times of a major war... and then again when they're fighting for their lives and they have to throw everyting they have in their arsenal, to the point of refurbishing museum ships (!). This is why I think that we saw a lot of old ships like the Miranda in the Dominion War- they were used not because they were powerful, but because SF needed all the firepower it could get (of course the real reason is FX-driven). In my book size 2 fighters should have a torpedo penetration value of no more than 1/1/1/1/1 or at most 2/2/2/2/2, with a matching low beam penetration. Mind you, a swarm of 6 fighters armed that way (plus the supporting Akira) is still deadly- they wouldn't score a lot of penetrating hits (probably none at first) but the enemy's shields would go down in no time. Then the enemy won't last 2 minutes. Finally, if fighters were that powerful then logically you would see nothing but fighters based on huge carriers, which IMVHO, is very un-trek like (but hey if some folks dig that then more power to them, trek = IDIC ) Fighters would be, by far, the most cost-effective fighting platform, especially when it comes to casualties: instead of having a lot of cruisers or frigates each crewed on average with 200+ crewmen it would be far better to have thousands of fighters with a crew of 2. Well of course YMMV

[Cmdr Powers]

Snake, you make some very good points and, BION, I actually agree with you on most of them. Fighters are not a particularly well-represented segment of the Trek universe and your point about dragging them out for the DW is well taken.

I used three Mk-50 DF launchers in my Peregrine design. The Mk-50 will fit on a Size 2 ship. They were chosen based on Steve Long's assignment of 6 torpedoes to the Starfleet Attack Fighter in the DW supplement to Spacedock. Now, I don't want to give up those Mk-50's, but I'm perfectly willing to admit that there isn't a whole hell of a lot of space on a Peregrine for massive torpedo magazines. What say we compromise and allow those fighters just one or two launches- say attacking only the number of times that launchers are aboard. This would only allow for 3 torpedo attacks with the Peregrine. After that, its back to phasers. Whaddayasay?

...and, as I've said before, them Peregrines sure don't last long!

[Cmdr Powers]

BTW, Snake, just how many 'Scorpions' (Size 1, 1 Disruptor, 2 crew, etc.) does the Norexan carry?

[Snake_Plissken]

Now, I don't want to give up those Mk-50's

What say we compromise

Whaddayasay?

hey, its your game man as Jon Tuffley (the creator of Full Thrust) says: "don't let anyone tell you you're doing it 'wrong'". I was merely sharing my view and I wasn't crictizing in the least. Sorry if I came off that way . Besides, if we had all the same perspective this board would get boring fast When I say I believe that an element in ST works this way or that I'm not saying I'm right (and that someone who shares a different viewpoint is wrong) but merely offering my best educated guess (... which tends to be coloured by my personal tastes, I admit). After all, there are many things we don't see in the ST universe (or rather we only see a tiny portion of it) and, for instance in this case' nothing indicates that fighters aren't a big part of the fleet indeed.

That being said;

allow those fighters just one or two launches- say attacking only the number of times that launchers are aboard. This would only allow for 3 torpedo attacks with the Peregrine. After that, its back to phasers

that's a good concept. It would give the fighters a good throw punch then once the ordnance's gone they race out of harm's way back to the 'carrier'. OTOH the CODA ship combat system is quite abstract and maybe penetration values take into account not only the number of torpedoes fired in a spread and their strength, but the number of torpedoes carried. But your idea is a nice way to use fighters in a tactical way, which would make for interesting tactics

BTW, Snake, just how many 'Scorpions' (Size 1, 1 Disruptor, 2 crew, etc.) does the Norexan carry?

I have no idea I don't have access to whatever canon info was released about the ship. But I think that maybe you have the Scimitar in mind. As I indicated in another thread if I had to give my opinion I'd say that the Scorpion fighters are more like tiny interceptors that prey on other fighters, shuttlecraft or small attack craft like the Dominion fighters (or used for ground support). In the movie the Scimitar never actually deployed them (although the real reason, I would think, has more to do with FX issues). I think that Data says that the Scimitar carries around 30 of those. In any case they are one of the smallest craft ever in ST and I would venture that their firepower is negligeable (if you can judge by size... which isn't always the best indicator I reckon )

[Cmdr Powers]

Originally posted by Snake_Plissken
... if we had all the same perspective this board would get boring fast

No kidding

No, I'm just looking for a good exchange of ideas and I'm always willing to discuss both sides of an issue to see what might or might not work.

The CODA system is abstract, but I suspect that the intention was that the Narrator would come up with any elaborations needed for a combat situation.

While a munchkin might take my Peregrine design and use it as a technically legal excuse to have a tiny fighter duke it out with cruisers, a fair Narrator would and should restrict the Peregrines to just a few shots. If you want to give a fighter deep magazines, you install Mk-25 Microtorps.

As for the "Scorpion" and the Norexan-class, there is no indication that I've found that the Valdore carried Scorpions. From Data's familiarity, we might (and I do mean might) infer that the Scorpion is a common part of the Romulan Star Navy. Your Norexan-class concept is very well done and I'm sure there's plenty of room for a 6 or so Size 1 Scorpions. Such a setup might be a way for a Norexan-class to combat an Akira and its Peregrines on a more even footing.

[Lancer]

MVAM:
I think the only change this system needs is a change of name. Let's call the whole concept MVEM, with an E as in "Exploration".
Sure, you can cram a whole lot of Runabouts and Talons into an Akira hangar, but a Prometheus could be the ideal ship for deep space exploration missions beyond the Federation borders.

Fighters:
Way back I came up with a new flaw called "Limited Payload" to use with the Attack Fighters in my game. You can apply it to either beam weapons, missile weapons or both (for two flaws) and have to make a reliability test after each round you use this weapon system. If you fail the test it stops working, i.e. it runs out of torpedoes, capacitor packs, whatever.

Sure, it seems unrealistic that you won't know in advance how many rounds you can fire your torpedoes, but OTOH the whole system is rather abstract anyway. Plus it avoids bookkeeping and adds to the suspense of space battles.

[Cmdr Powers]

Originally posted by Lancer
Fighters:
Way back I came up with a new flaw called "Limited Payload" to use with the Attack Fighters in my game. You can apply it to either beam weapons, missile weapons or both (for two flaws) and have to make a reliability test after each round you use this weapon system. If you fail the test it stops working, i.e. it runs out of torpedoes, capacitor packs, whatever.

... it avoids bookkeeping and adds to the suspense of space battles.

Thanks for reminding me about your excellent thread about new edges and flaws, Lancer. Your Limited Payload flaw (TN8) is an ideal, CODA-friendly, way to handle the concept. I'm going to go ahead and adopt it for my Peregrine.

As for the Prometheus as an exploration vessel, I don't know- the design seems to be intended for combat primarily. What other reasons can you think of that make the Prometheus a good exploration vessel?

[Lancer]

Originally posted by Cmdr Powers
As for the Prometheus as an exploration vessel, I don't know- the design seems to be intended for combat primarily. What other reasons can you think of that make the Prometheus a good exploration vessel?

Okay, the Prometheus as seen on screen certainly seems to be intended primarily for combat, but IMHO the MVAM feature could be put to good use in exploring potentialy hostile sectors.
The ship can chart a few sectors, assess the potential risks and then decide to either "stick together" for further exploration if the risks look high or split up to explore three different systems at the same time if it looks like they won't run into any major trouble.

With a little tinkering the Prometheus parts could serve the roles of Scout, Surveyor and Escort respectively and still combine into a vessel that could handle most combat situations that could come up during an extended exploration mission.

[Typhonis 1]

um doesnt MVAM just needlessly add complications to an already complicated system??? I mean in combined mode you need to synch THREE warp cores. wouldnt it have been better to just add fighters to the design???

[Lancer]

Who says you have to run all 3 warpcores when the parts are joined? My guess would be that one part serves as the core of the combined Prometheus taking over power supply, control (i.e.bridge) and other functions for the whole vessel.
(Or as they say in anime "And I'll form the head!)

OTOH I am not married to the idea. All I am saying is that in some situations a 'combiner' might be more usefull than a single ship plus small craft (runabouts and/or fighters).

[Typhonis 1]

I`m just looking at it from th KISS perspective .You want to keep an exploreres systems simple so that when they do break down the crew will be able toeasily repair them.

[Snake_Plissken]

well the whole MVAM comes from the Prometheus, which is another plot-device gimmick ship. The producers wanted something different (can't blame them) and something 'cool'. Hence a cool dart-looking ship that can split in 3 and kick ass. And that's it. Now, we're left to explain why splitting a ship in 3 is supposed to be such a kick-ass thing that the Romulans would want risking a major war to acquire it for study. So logically, there must be something to it of great tactical importance. I'd say that the breakthrough was that Starfleet was able to cram in duplicate components (like shields) into the different independent sections. Previously you had the Galaxy class that could split in two but the saucer section was supposed to run away while the stardrive section would act as a fighting ship. In the case of the Prometheus all 3 sections would either dance around a single ship and overwhelm it or each section tackle a single opponent. If you're facing on of those and it splits, then suddenly you have to bring down 3 shields, not one- which greatly dilutes your firepower. Then each section can perform different maneuvers (say, one draining the shields, while the other one targets a particular system). I don't have the books with me so I can't recall if the MVAM system confers additional bonii. If not, than maybe it should, like grouping the tactical modifiers together and let only one tac officer coordinate the firing. Well in short, make the MVAM something different than just being 3 ships fighting together.