I like Starships, but...

[KillerWhale]

w00+! Received my copy of Starships today!

I read it almost totally at lunch hour.

And, well...

...I've been a little disappointed.

Don't get me wrong; I like it. I love it. I will be using and abusing the system to build tons of ships. The book is good, is well worth its (high) price and I recommend it.

But somehow, I didn't find everything I was expecting in it.

In fact, I've been surprised to have 9 10ths of the book dedicated solely to ship profiles. They are good; don't get me wrong (although the art is not always right on the spot, but never mind).

But... I guess I was expecting this book to be too much like Spacedock and it turned out to be too much like a SRM.

What I would have liked to see: more systems, more on special rules like Starship renown, advancement, warp core breaches, more maneuvers... In fact I'll be mostly using one tenth of the book, and not often the profiles provided.

Oh well. I just guess I'll have to write the additional stuff myself, but hey, I love to do that so I won't complain.

To conclude: that's a great book that I highly recommend. The additional rules are heaven - I just would have liked to see more of'em.

[Lt Cmdr Matt]

I just got it too and was thinking the same thing KW. I guess we will have to wait for this Starships Volume II Don has been talking about. (Only kidding Don)

SUPERIOR JOB!

[Snake_Plissken]

bonjour, bonjour!

In fact, I've been surprised to have 9 10ths of the book dedicated solely to ship profiles

it was advertized that way and the contents were published on these boards. The ships provided, since they represent the main ships from the various eras and powers, act as templates to guide ship design.

(although the art is not always right on the spot, but never mind).

my thought exactly, although I do mind- a high price tag is not justified by some of the botched designs.

I guess I was expecting this book to be too much like Spacedock and it turned out to be too much like a SRM

I don't know if you want to use Spacedock as a reference. Firstly you have to remember that SD was never actually published. If it would have been, most of the material in it would have been cut or edited for publication. I'm not a big fan of SD and the subsequent SRMs. A lot of the rules or concepts are flawed (like the Federation not using their overwhelming advantage in torpedo strength over the Cardassians because Starfleet are the good guys ) and the ship stats ungodly unbalanced, anf often the text has nothing to do with the actual stats. The reason why I tried to use a diplomatic tone as much as possible is that I always felt bad at cricticizing SD since A- a lot of the board members worked on the SRM, but especially B-Steve Long has put a LOT of effort in SD and the SRMs and he didn't have to share all of his work (for free to boot) and he did so very graciously.

I'm actually glad that in 'Starship' the amount of extra rules like new maneuvers or edges have been kept to a minimum. Firstly all the material found in the NG are more than enough to cover most situations and options in starship combat and giving tons of options (like 29 different tactical maneuvers) isn't a good idea: it would bog down play no end.

Lastly, with using 'Starship' as a guideline you could design, as you've mentionned, new systems, edges, flaws and maneuvers. As a matter of fact it would be really nice if you'd post them.

well, Joyeuses Pâques!

[KillerWhale]

Joyeuses Pâques à toi aussi

Well, I knew that there were lotsa ships in there - I just didn't expect them to take 9/10ths of the book; but I don't mind THAT much.

I don't use SD in game - too much mechanics, too detailed for my taste - but I liked the way it referenced almost every "space material" seen on the shows and transcripted it faithfully in game terms. Other aspects I like are the crew casualties, the "alpha-beta..." types maneuvers, and the uncommon maneuvers as well: all these nice details which add a lot, IMO, to a game.

I'd really like to do a "Starships 1.5" (if I dare to use such a reference to Don's excellent and very balanced work) if I have the time. I'd put in it all the material I came up with so far (maneuvers, systems, profiles...), and more. I'd share it of course. I just suspect time won't allow me to do it

However I was very pleased that my wild guesses at some maneuvers like Scorpion Evasive were not too far from what Master Don designed

[Snake_Plissken]

but I liked the way it referenced almost every "space material" seen on the shows and transcripted it faithfully in game terms.

well that is certainly one of the best aspects of SD; in that regard it was very complete (and very well done)

Other aspects I like are the crew casualties, the "alpha-beta..." types maneuvers, and the uncommon maneuvers as well: all these nice details which add a lot, IMO, to a game.

you're right... maybe I tend to focus too much on the aspects of SD I don't like too much. The "Alpha-Beta" maneuvers were nicely done, and the terminology matched very well what we heard on screen, it had the perfect feel to it.

well come to think of it sometimes I too have to come up with new stuff- for instance while designing the Scimitar from Nemesis I felt that it really needed strong shields (plus it was stated on screen that it had 'secondary shields', whatever that is) and that no system (even the regenerative stuff) in Starship would feel quite right.

[Don Mappin]

[Edit] Sorry it didn't meet your expectations.

"Starships" was written nearly a year ago and no advanced copies of the Nemesis script were given to me. I can't write about items I have no knowledge of (the Scimitar).

[Lt Cmdr Matt]

Actually the more I read it the more I like the different starships that do take up the book space. I love the part on the Danube class runabout and the different modules, aswell as the Nebula.

I say 9.5/10 since the art is still a little weird but not bad...

Good writing Don!

[Phantom]

Originally posted by Don Mappin
Sorry you don't like it.

KW, or anyone else who has posted here, never said he didn't like the book. As a matter of fact they have all gone out of their way to express the positive virtues of the book. They have just stated it wasn't exactly what they expected.

Now I know that I have been overly critical towards Dec, so perhaps I am the wrong person to say this. Why are you so sensitive toward any form of criticism?

[Cochrane]

He doesn't sound so sensitive to me.

[qerlin]

Wrote a review of the book for rpg.net, Don. I gave it a pretty hearty thumbs-up, save for the art. And I made a point of giving you the credit you were due in the review.

[qerlin]

Here's a write-up I did for a new ship for the movie period. It's the Loknar II, based on the USS Phobos cgi running about the net. Took me ten minutes with the new rules...

LOKNAR II Class Fast Frigate
Origin: United Federation of Planets
Year Commissioned: 2371

HULL DATA
Size: 5 Structure: 25
Length/Beam/Draught: 240m/141m/58m Decks: 12
Crew: 290 Cargo: 50

OPERATIONS DATA
Operations Systems: Class 2/C
Life Support Systems: Class 2/C
Sensor Systems: Class 2/C (+2/+1/0/0/0)
Tractor Beams: 1av ( in weapons pod)
Transporters: 3 Personnel and cargo
Shuttlebay: 1 aft, saucer
Shuttlecraft: 2 Type 5 (size 2)

PROPULSION DATA
Impulse Engines: RSM (.75c/D)
Warp Engines: LN-64 Mod 3 (Warp 7/9/12 OCS / D)

TACTICAL DATA
Beam Weapons: Type VII (x3/B) Penetration: 4/4/4/0/0
Missile Weapons: Mk6 DF (x3/B) Penetration: 4/4/4/4/4
Deflector Shields: Type PFF3 Protection/Threshold: 14/3 (B)

MANEUVER DATA: +1C, +1H, +2T

The refit version of the venerable Loknar class vessel boasts a powerful set of weapons, as well as one of the most advanced engine systems in the fleet. She is one of the fastest ships currently fielded by Starfleet.

The schematics of the ship:

[Don Mappin]

Originally posted by qerlin
And I made a point of giving you the credit you were due in the review.

I hope you remembered to include Dave Biggins as well.

[Snake_Plissken]

"Starships" was written nearly a year ago and no advanced copies of the Nemesis script were given to me. I can't write about items I have no knowledge of (the Scimitar).

Mmh? You're mistaken First of all I know that Starship was written well before Nemesis came out so it wasn't a criticism. I was just pointing out that there was always room to create new rules and that it is impossible for a ruleset to cover all the aspects, especially when you're dealing with plot-device ships like the Scimitar.

They have just stated it wasn't exactly what they expected.

for the record Starship is and isn't what I expected: as far as content goes there was, as I said, no surprise since its contents were announced well before it came out. Where I was surprised was that I wasn't impressed (that's putting it very mildly) with the ship section of the SOM but Don said that Starship was done with great care- so I took his word for it but I'll admit I had some lingering doubt (shame on me I know ), until I read the whole thing and I was very impressed. Also the art and layout is quite crisp and generally impressive; it is just that there are a couple of ship art designs that are way off, and that shouldn't happen for a book of that price, but in my view that's a minor complaint, kinda like picking on the tacky colours of a babe's bikini

and Qerlin, nice design! I used to love the Loknar in the FASA starship game.

[Kodiak]

I got my copy of Starships today, and I have a few comments.
1) outstanding product, very cool.
2) What happened to the Keldon and Galor stats? the Keldon is stated as being faster, but this is not reflected in the stats.
3) This question comes from my wargaming background: without Jem'Hadar ships having torpedoes, why would Starfleet ever close the range? They can sit back and lob photon torpedoes at the ships without retribution. The stats show the Dominion ships as being marginally faster (and the Warship is more maneuverable than the FAS?), but this is not taken into accout in the combat rules. I'm just trying to understand how things work. I know that if I don't get things worked out now, my players are going to eat me alive. Part of the problem with having an RPG with people who first think of Rocket Propelled Grenades when they hear RPG.

Once again thanks for the fine product!

[Karg]

Originally posted by qerlin
Here's a write-up I did for a new ship for the movie period. It's the Loknar II, based on the USS Phobos cgi running about the net. Took me ten minutes with the new rules...


The schematics of the ship:

Somebody had posted a site for this ship that had some very nicly done wallpapers of the ship, Does anyone know what the url is?