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Thread: Trek Diatribe

  1. #1

    Trek Diatribe

    I Love playing ST: RPG but my friends and me are running into too many things in the system that we find broken, confusing, against the genre etc. For some of the players (and the GM) it is getting in the way of creating a fun playing experience. I looked to the Errata to cure some of the problems, but they did not answer a single one, so I am assuming that the games work for everyone else. I suppose if I post something here every one will say your not using that right, or we misinterpreted etc. So this may seem like a mean spirited post, it might just be exactly what I need to bring rule stability to my game.

    1 Mixed Species
    I have read that people are supposed to go into this with best intention, taking a racial weakness, however, most players will ALWAYS opt to have an amazing amount of high and broken stats aka Half Vulcan/Half Whatever Take the bonuses and lose the penalties. Why is it that mixed races are allowed to cash in on superior breeding? Why can’t you have two parents of a human and mixed them together to create a great stated person too? Instead Half Breeds will dominate over any pure race. This makes no sense. We have a Half Ocampa/Vulcan in our party. He rolled two pairs of stats, he rolled really well, his stats are such; 14 STR, 13 INT, 12 REF, 12 VIT, 12 PRE, 11 PER. We have other Half Breeds that are Vulcan, and of course they have 14 STR and 13 INT, and they never take the minus three to Presence. This Mixed Species rule imbalances the game.

    2 System Overhaul
    I play the Ships Engineer on the U.S.S. Endurance in our campaign. We were given two advancements before the game started; I took Jury Rig and System Overhaul with the two advancement levels (plus some skills). System Overhaul seems really cool. My only bit of confusion is that the Overhaul rolls are they permanent? There is nowhere in the entry (pg. 71) that says it is temporary or permanent. The GM figured that overhaul implied permanent. Which is fine, but this Ability is then just ridiculous. Not only is the TN really low (15), but also it is capable of making a Warp Drive (i.e. 5/7/6) into a 7.5/9/9.98. With one roll of a TN of fifteen. Is that change permanent? Or is it the Scotty power that makes the drive efficient for a short amount of time?

    3 Target Numbers
    The 5-25 system seems a little low. I say this because Virtually Impossible is not Virtually impossible. Now if the intent of the game is that these feats are virtually impossible to Joe Schmoe, then that’s fine. However, Officers on a ship are able to get “Virtually Impossible Rolls” Virtually most of the Time. I.e. Fresh out of the academy my engineer has 6 ranks in Engineering Propulsion (Warp Drives) (+8) and he has 12 intellect (+3). Along with that he had Eidetic Memory (+2), and Thinker (+1). So with zero enhancements he already has a =14 on a warp drives engineering check. He also has Engineering Expertise (Propulsion Warp Drive) and a physics of 5 ranks, giving a bonus of another +3, so now his bonus is 17. There may be an Affinity bonus in here for something, another +1. So a Level One Character Fresh out of Starfleet is capable of rolling a 25 about 50% of the time. If you say 7 is the average of 2d6 and the total Engineering Warp Drive Propulsion Bonus is +18. So your telling me that an Ensign/cadet out of Starfleet could “sling-shot around the sun to effect time travel?” And that’s without advancement. Eventually I can put another 6 ranks into my Engineering Propulsion. I guess all I am saying here is that Virtually Impossible feats happen way too often in this system. If that was the intent of the game, then more power to ya. Trek is a realm where bridge officers are just amazing. But don’t you think that this TN system could use a little revising (yes even if you take into account the critical success table). It just seems that the TNs are a little low, all things considering.

    4 System Operations
    This skill seems to be a little too much. It encompasses 10 different systems of a ship, where on the ship many people have specialties. What is my problem here? Here’s an example. The Helmsman, after three advancements have gotten his System Operations up to 12 ranks, and he has specialized everything into flight. This is great, he is an amazing pilot. However, he also has the ability to use every system on the bridge at an almost mastery level. He can solve many problems by multi tasking and covering other positions. What I am saying is this Helmsman has spent his whole life focusing on piloting, but apparently he is also good at command, deflector, beam weapons, flight control, operations, nav, sensors, tactical, and transporter. He has equal knowledge n using all of these, he may not have the specializations, but he still gets a +12. So why have a tactical officer is your helm can do both? It seems that the helm can do a lot of thing by him self that he would never actually involve himself in. In the show the Helm (early on in TNG an ensign) never worked the teleporter, or never targeted the beam weapons, although he might be able to do it better than the tactical officer. Why not do both, there is nothing in the rules that says he can’t? System Ops seems like too big of a skill. At least that is how it seems to me. There is no incentive to specialize in Ops, you should just get a lot of ops and then you are able to do almost every operation on the bridge. Was this the way Decipher intended this skill to be?

    5 Advancement
    When you advance you can only raise two professional skills at all? That’s not a gripe, more of a question, even the errata seemed vague there.

    Well that’s all I have to say for now. It’s a little long, but I just want to see if I am even in the right galaxy in my arguements. If this is the way Decipher intended the game, then so be it, I won’t let it get in the way of having an enjoyable experience.

    Jason Keen

  2. #2
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    First of all, welcome! I'm sorry that for your first post, I will answer a bit harshly, but it's nothing personal, just heated discussion

    I think the problem here is not the system, but, if I may say so, your GM.

    1. Half-breeds: he should limitate - or forbid altogether - this kind of character. I mean, half-Ocampan/Vulcan? How could an Ocampa ever meet a Vulcan in Pon Farr to have child with their short life-spans?

    2. System Overhaul: I think this is not permanent.

    3. TNs: Yes, the Virtually Impossible is intended for average people. So what? Indeed, you roll on 25 50% of the time. In my campaign, the players have so much experience that in their specialties, they roll 25s 80% of the time. What's the problem? A GM has to manage the opposition; never forget that if a PC rolls 30-35s 50% of the time, it's also possible for the opposition. And it's likely that as they become the best of the galaxy, they will be pitted against the best as well.
    And there are other ways to have a big opposition without increasing the TNs. Think Q. Think the Borg. No matter how powerful the PCs are, if three battlecruisers gang up on their ship alone, they won't escape unscathed (or at all).

    4. System Ops: it has already been discussed at length elsewhere - search the boards.

    5. Advancements: the aim of this is to avoid munchkinism - like, taking 5 levels of a professional skill.

    The rules are only an aid; if they are applied to the letter, in every RPG (except maybe DD) you will have weird situations like the ones you are describing. The GM has to know what to allow and what not to allow, and keep the opposition interesting so as to make his players sweat.

    Just my two cents

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  3. #3
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    Re: Trek Diatribe

    Originally posted by Mr_Watson

    1 Mixed Species
    We have a Half Ocampa/Vulcan in our party.
    Let me get this straight? Ocampa only in the Delta Quadrant and a Vulcan Mixed Speicies. As far as I know Tuvok never mated with anyone in the Delta Quadrant. With Mixed Species use your head. It is up to the Narrator but still. Wow, this to me makes no since and I would never allowed this combo on so many levels.


    Originally posted by Mr_Watson
    2 System Overhaul
    Narrator Call to make this work. I think Starships helps alittle with this not a whole lot. Best I can say is this allows the ST to run plot lines that can take a bit to get done. Like the Captain and some kids trapped in a lift...........


    Originally posted by Mr_Watson
    3 Target Numbers
    Once again a Narrator call make his or her best judgement on the situation at hand. Somethings should be harder than others and the TN systems shows this. I try to run my game loose and not have everything solved by TN and then in some places I do to keep my games going. TN and the higher numbers are made so Narrator's can gauge of their group can handle the situation and so not everyone starts pulling Matrix style manuavers or Jackie Chan or John Woo all the time. This makes it that even the Vulcan can be wrong............


    Originally posted by Mr_Watson
    4 System Operations
    Check the past Boards believe me I agree it seems over coming at first alot of good suggestions and what not. KillerWhale is right. Check the back I found alot of issues talked about

    Originally posted by Mr_Watson 5 Advancement
    When you advance you can only raise two professional skills at all? That’s not a gripe, more of a question, even the errata seemed vague there. .[/B]
    You get Renown like in Werewolf or old Marvel Superheroes and get EXP points like in D&D. When you get your 1000 exp points to reach Advancement you get 5 points to spend using the chart on pages 152-153 in STPG.
    If you are talking Advancement in Character Creation check out page 97 in the STPG.
    Hey my opinion

    Without Star Trek: The Original Series there would be no other Trek Series or Movies regardless of shows rewriting the Series past.

  4. #4
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    Some small additions :

    1. I decided not to follow the book's rules as far as half breed are concerned, or rather, follow them but with a twist : calculating the picks cost (as explained in the NG) of the resulting half breed (ie considering the hybrid as a species). The pick cost must not be higher than the higher cost of the parent species. Therefore, no Klingon/Vulcan hybrid with +3 Strength and +1 Vitality or whatever and lots of species traits to come with.

    3. I'm fine with this. It means a specialist (hey, how do you call someone with 12 in a skill) or an expert in a field (that's for your first example - +6 then speciality, then affinities and traits) will succeed at most tasks in his field of expertise. That's what specialists are for. After all, how many times did you see Scotty/LaForge/Dax/O'Brien/Whoever say "Sorry Captain - this is beyond my abilities, can't do that". OK, these are the show heroes, but after all, players usually are meant to be the heroes - of the game.

    5. IIRC the thing is not raising the same professional skill more than twice per advancement. I may be wrong here, so don't hesitate to correct me.
    "The main difference between Trekkies and Manchester United fans is that Trekkies never trashed a train carriage. So why are the Trekkies the social outcasts?"
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  5. #5
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    C5: I think you're right about the advancement stuff, it's ,ot raising the same skill more than twice in one advancement (dunno, I'm awarding picks at our sessions rather than the classical XP )

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  6. #6
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    Mr_Watson, welcome to the madhouse.

    Allow me to add my two pieces of small change to the discusssion:

    1. Mixed Species
    AFAIR (don't have the PG at hand) mixed species characters should get many of the species abilities at a reduced effect, e.g. half-betazoids get Empathy rather than Telepathy. This could (and IMHO should) be used to counter the higher attributes.

    2. System Overhaul
    I asked about this myself here on the forum a while ago, but never got an answer I found realy satisfying. My suggestion would be to either invoke frequent reliability test for the upgraded system or make the duration of the effect dependent on the degree of success the engineer gets when making the test for his upgrade. In combat situations even one or two rounds with a better system can make a big difference, so you could set the duration as 1 round for a marginal success, 2 for a complete success, etc.

    3. Target Numbers
    Yes, they sometimes seem too low, but OTOH just making the TN sometimes isn't enough. Remember that the higher the degree of success, the faster you perform a task. While geting a result of 15 or 20 on an average roll might look easy time could be of essence, requiring much higher results as often as the GM feels like it.
    And then there are all the negative modifiers you could be subject to, like outside distractions, lack of tools, etc. etc., making a check much more difficult than it at first seems to be.

    As an aside: The engineer in your example adds +3 for edges that apply to academic tests (eidetic memory, thinker), but the test could just as well be a physical skill test, depending on how the GM sees it. In that case another attribute might be more appropriate (Agility), for a reduced attribute modifier as well.

    4. System Operations
    There has indeed been some discussion of this skill, but as I can't remember it all that well some things that may or may not be in those older threats:
    - There is no fixed number of advancements someone has to have to fill a certain position on a starship. The ensign at the helm might have served with Starfleet for several years, but that doesn't mean he has even a single advancement. If he is an NPC the GM should just give him the skills that seem necessary for this character to fit the role he has to play in the game. This doesn't say he has to be some hot-shot pilot at all.
    - A lot of people on a starship are enlisted, not officers, and they don't get all those nifty professional abilities, so the officer better be good at what they do.
    - As C5 pointed out the "stars" of your series should be able to do a lot of things with equal ease. And a lot of things that add to the skill/attribute combination are edges and especially professional abilities, giving the real specialists a significant edge in their line of work that no other character from a different profession could match.

  7. #7
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    Re: Trek Diatribe

    Welcome to the boards. I'll take a shot at a couple of your issues.

    1 Mixed Species
    Because of the variance in the differing species, there's really no way for a rule set to completely control mixing. It depends on the player/GM working together to get a non-munchkin result. You stated yourself that "He rolled two pairs of stats, he rolled really well" -- well, that can happen with any character, it just happened to be the mixed PC this time. Other than that, the GM should have to approve the resulting character. In mixing species I look at it from the view that this will be how the two will basically always mix, so they need to be as balanced as the "true" species.

    For those just aghast at a Vulcan/Ocampa mix, just get over it already. Sure, in on-screen continuity it didn't happen, but this isn't a Paramount show is it? The Ocampa home-world could be in the Alpha quadrant in a home campaign. Or choose any number of other circumstances.

    3 Target Numbers
    "...Virtually Impossible is not Virtually impossible."
    I agree with the sentiment that the game Crew should be able to pull off some major stuff. It's also important to realize that while each character may be able to do this in a couple areas, most checks will not be that "easy" for them. You can always just increase the TN levels if you feel you just have to.

    5 Advancement
    "When you advance you can only raise two professional skills at all?"
    This is incorrect. You can only increase an individual professional skill by +2 during a single advancement (which would cost 2 picks), but with 5 picks, you could raise 5 professional skill by +1 each (if you don't want to use them for anything else). This forces a player to improve in multiple areas, to a degree, instead of being a munchkin and concentrating solely on one area. BTW, this also meshes well with 24th-century Trek in that SF officers endeavor to be well-rounded individuals.

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  8. #8
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    Okay, basically, it boils down to the following couple of points.

    1) The players must be willing to make a character that works within the setting. Uber-characters are the exception, not the rule.

    2) Getting a super-high level in one skill will severely hamper a character when they get into situations that don't involve that skill. A good Narrator will be sure to thrust them into just such situations, too. One-Trick Ponies can be fun, but if you take them out of their niche, it gets ugly.
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  9. #9
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    I have to say I agree with a lot of your sentiments Mr. Watson, although there is a lot of merit in what the others are saying too. It comes down to how you want your game to reflect the feel of the setting. Many, including the game designers and some of those who have responded thus far, feel that the system captures the setting perfectly, and a lot of their arguments are very good in this respect. From your comments, you seem to want more "realism" in your system (realism is of course extremely relative here) however. For some people what is good for a story (TV, written etc.) is sometimes not as good for a gaming environment, others might want to emulate the show as close as possible. I think that a few House Rules can transform CODA into something that functions very well as a more "realistic" system. Notice that these House rules might not work (in fact probably wouldn't work) with some groups, but they seemed to work well with mine before we started playing Champions for a while. YMMV or whatever that acronym for "whatever works in your game" certainly applies here.

    1. I recalculate all of species to make them more even anyway and like C5, Mixed Species simply have to add up to the same value as any other species. I use a slightly different system for calculating these numbers though, which takes into account the difference between general skill bonuses and specializations for instance. I thought when I created the chart that the species in the PG would all be mismatched, but in fact I only found three that did not add up to the same number of picks (one of whihc, the Ferengi I decided to leave alone anyway), unfortunately 2 more in the NG didn't and many of the SOM species have to be tweaked to use this house rule (which I have not gotten around to doing yet). Here is the page with the chart: http://www.digitalindalo.com/rpg/trek/racial_chart.html

    2. I simply wouldn't make it permanent or require Courage Points to be "donated" to the ship to make it long term (6 month gametime increments or a certain number of session increments) and/or simply step down the progression.

    3. I can understand what some of the others are saying, characters are supercompetent in the Trek universe, able to pull off the virtually impossible most of the time. I can also understand what you are saying, because it tends to cheapen (in some people's view, not others) the drama for that "I need to roll a 30 or we are all dead" moment. If you want to mainatin more realism here, limit the total amount of adds that can be placed onto a skill roll. This could be done in one of two ways: limiting the total bonus so that no amount of adds can more than double your base skill or limiting the number of adds to 2 (not counting specialties and/or stat mods and/or racial abilities maybe). This way the highly competent character (Base Skill 8-10) might be topping out at +20 which would force them to roll 10 on a 2d6 to pull off the virtually impossible. And why do the Trek characters do this every week? Courage points saved for when it counts o'course.

    4. Yeah, I have seen some of the supporting arguments on the boards too, and a lot of it is very convincing. Try this house rule to accommodate both views: Turn System Operations into a group skill, so that System Ops (Transporter) is a different skill than System Ops (Helm); however, to account for the highly integrated software/technical training/system design or what have you that allows basically everyone who knows how to pilot the ship to use the transporter with some facility allow a 1/2 skill check for all of the systems outside of your specific skill (call this "crossover"). If I have System Ops (Helm) at +14, I can make a System Ops (Transporter) roll at +7. Maybe allow a Professional Ability for the Operations Branch personnel to extend this "crossover" even further (such as 1:1 for an additional skill within the group for each time the ability is taken). I am still playing with this one myself, like breaking down the System Ops skills into different categories: System Ops (Engineering Systems) which would include Engineering controls, as well as transporters and replicators etc.; System Ops (Science Systems) which would include Science Stations and Science equipment as well as sensors and the Deflector Dish etc. In fact, perhaps both the Engineering and Science Systems skills include some of the same components, like the Deflector. You could even get more specific with your timeline: in the Enterprise era, they are separate skills altogether with little or no crossover, in the TOS era they are separate skills which have a crossover at 1/2 and in the TNG era the skills are broken into the larger categories and you still get a 1/2 crossover into the other category areas.

    5. I am working on an Experience Point/Modified Pick chart now that makes it tougher for people to add skills at higher base values, raising a 2 to a 3 is cheaper than a 7 to an 8. The aim here is to allow characters to grow faster at the beginning (for broader competence) but not get too far out of hand too quickly (to the ubercharacter). Tweaking and re-tweaking on this house rule is still in progress.
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  10. #10
    This is from the Errata . . .

    Page 153, Advancing Skills and Reactions. The descriptive text is misleading in stating that you may only spend a certain number of picks per advancement. The limitations are per advancement, not pick. Thus, a character may increase a maximum of two professional skills, one non-professional skill, two favored reactions, or one non-favored reaction per advancement (provided they have enough picks).

    5 Advancement
    "When you advance you can only raise two professional skills at all?"
    This is incorrect. You can only increase an individual professional skill by +2 during a single advancement (which would cost 2 picks), but with 5 picks, you could raise 5 professional skill by +1 each (if you don't want to use them for anything else). This forces a player to improve in multiple areas, to a degree, instead of being a munchkin and concentrating solely on one area. BTW, this also meshes well with 24th-century Trek in that SF officers endeavor to be well-rounded individuals

    Am I reading that errata wrong, cause the errata says that you can only increase a max of two professional skills per advancement.

    -------------------
    With that aside, I thank you for all posting and giving advice because it is somewhat helpful. However, none of these answers are telling me anything clearly about the rules. aka in reference to topic number two System Overhaul:
    I simply wouldn't make it permanent
    My suggestion would be to
    Narrator Call to make this work.
    System Overhaul: I think this is not permanent

    Thank you for answering but I am loking for a , thats a good question maybe we can clear that up in an errata Mr_Watson because it seems that I am not the only person perplexed by this. The reason that there are rules is that they are presented clearly, if they wern't then this would be White Wolf, and you are Decipher thank goodness and I don't want to worry about vague and verbose rules. What I am saying is if I could get a real answer from a Decipher person, I would be grateful. The Special Ability Technical Conversion on pg 184 is also just as vague, and consistant vaguities are BAD.

    We are discussing what should be done with System Operations cause it is just obnoxious the way it is, I suggested make it a group skill but the point came up that no person would ever get out of starfleet without a one in every skill. I do think your suggestion Pub is pretty good, something that was in my mind also. I was just hoping for a more official quote about this conundrum. I could not find the other System Ops Threads, so I'm sorry to rehash this.

    I guess I'm just saying that the races are just too powerful in general. Nevermind the Ocampa/Vulcan stupidity it dosn't say anything against it in the rules. It just seems that these wern't thought out that well.

    From Doug
    2) Getting a super-high level in one skill will severely hamper a character when they get into situations that don't involve that skill. A good Narrator will be sure to thrust them into just such situations, too. One-Trick Ponies can be fun, but if you take them out of their niche, it gets ugly

    I agree One-Trick Ponies suck. However, a Trek Crew is full of One Trick ponies. The Captain is a jack of all trades, and relies on his dash to put everything together He faces the most personal tests of little skills throughout the episode. However the supporting cast aka the crew are supposed to be good at WHAT THEY DO. Most of the time they will never ever have to do anything out of their specialty. And when they do in the show, they seem to be able to do it anyways, but thats beside the point. In a game if each player is delegated a role, then they will be able to do their role to the maximum ability, and thats all they really need to worry about. What I'm saying is that the One Trick pony works in games where the combat character most likely get into a "social situation." However, that does not happen in Trek, unless the Episode involves some anomaly eliminating the crew and leaving it to the Engineer to save the day, then his little side skill gets him by. Trek is all about one trick ponies, the way I see the game, and the genre says that you need one trick ponies. But a Captain should never be a one trick pony. Its too easy to beocme a one-trick pony on the level of skill of Geordi. At least that what it seems like to me.

    Alright I've said enough, and some of it may be a little convoluted, for that I apologize cause I am criticizing vaguness, so I am being hipocritical, but it is afterall 4:45 am.

    Mr Watson aka Jason Keen

  11. #11
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    Let me preface this by saying that my gaming group has made similar observations and, has thus, created some optional/house rules on the topics.

    But before all that…

    Jason,

    Have you ever played Star Trek before? I am referring to the other versions previous to the CODA system.

    Did you have similar problems with them?
    Kronok

    I am dead. As of this moment, we are all dead. We go into battle to reclaim our lives. This we do gladly because we are Jem’Hadar. Remember, victory is life.

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  12. #12
    I have not played the ICON/Last Unicorn Trek.

    I have played a lot of systems,
    Storyteller, D6, D20, 7th Sea, L5R, GURPS, Thac0 D&D, CODA, Deadlands, Godlike (an awesome engine btw) the list goes on.

    So am familiar with the units of a RPG. I am in no way a rules lawyer, the fact that I am complaining about the rules is pretty rare for me, but I do appreciate consistancy. Our GM is not really a Home Rules GM, cause he thinks he shouldn't have too. For this I agree, he spent the money on the system, he deserves some consistant rules.

    I have looked at this board and seen that there were a LOT of imrovements from ICON into CODA (from what I gathered) so Kudos, it still dosn't mean that it can be vauge about certain things.

    Jason Keen

  13. #13
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    Fair enough. (Interesting topic by the way )

    So, I take it you are looking for some house rules to fix these problematic areas? If so, I do have some suggested house rules to fix them. But first…

    Have you tried creating any house rules to alter these areas of the game? Personally, I do not know of any system (Some of which you have listed) that did not require the alteration of certain rules to make the game more playable. Any thoughts or comments on this?
    Kronok

    I am dead. As of this moment, we are all dead. We go into battle to reclaim our lives. This we do gladly because we are Jem’Hadar. Remember, victory is life.

    "The D20 System is the heart of the classic fantasy roleplaying experience, the game that has taught us all how to be munchkins. There is no way we could do it with any other system."

  14. #14
    I am not looking for House Rules actually. What I am looking for are clarifications on these rules. Nothing more, if I wanted House rules I would have suggested some to the GM.

    The reason why I am bringing this up is that these rules are vague and need to be cleared up. In General the errata has not answered any of the questions. It has not cleared up everything. It is very frustrating to play this game with people who read the book and say "what the hell does that mean" and then have to explain it, and then the GM needs to figure it out too.

    I guess all I am saying is I like to play by the rules as much as I can, so I can see what the game is intended to do. From there we can make changes.

    Also did I read that there is a revised book coming out soon?

    Jason

  15. #15
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    Originally posted by Mr_Watson
    I guess all I am saying is I like to play by the rules as much as I can, so I can see what the game is intended to do. From there we can make changes.
    Understandable. I guess if I wasn't the only one in my game who really cared about the rules I would be in the same position as you are now - in which case we would most likely never have switched over from ICON.

    So, while personaly I like the new options Coda gives me to develop my character, if you want to play a Trek game, maybe Icon would suite your needs better than Coda Trek does.

    Not that I want to bash Coda or anything - I sure wouldn't, even if I have some gripes with the system - but it may not be for everyone, after all.

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