Starfleet uniforms, replicated or not?

[Lancer]

What do you think, are Starfleet uniforms usually replicated or made by more conventional means?

DS9 had a few hints that uniforms are not replicated like "Garak can make you a new uniform once we return", and now that I have the SOM I came across "Slight design variations crept in between, ..., fabrication plants" in regard to uniforms.

Now if uniforms were replicated I would assume all fabrication plants worked from the same basic template, so I wouldn't expect variations during the fabrication process.
OTOH I can't see any reason why you couldn't just take some biometric scans, feed them into the computer and voila, instant new uniform.

[Captain Novaes]

Perhaps it is a matter of taste, really. Isn´t the 24th century Federation all about personal fullfilment ? Then maybe DS9 crew just preferred to have Garak custom-make their uniforms.

Speaking of replicators, I find the whole notion of people being able to tell the difference between replicated and "normal" food (or clothing, or drinks, or what-have-you) very amusing. I mean, the thing´s supposed to make exact copies down to the atomic (or is it molecular ?) level. There´s no way human senses, or most aliens for that matter, to detect that level of perfection...

[KillerWhale]

Not really... Replicated food is an imperfect, coarse copy of the real thing, even if the nutritional value is there. Replicators, although refined pieces of machinery, are not very precise, so there are many limits to their capabilities.

That's why connoisseurs can make the difference...

[Balok]

Originally posted by KillerWhale
Not really... Replicated food is an imperfect, coarse copy of the real thing, even if the nutritional value is there. Replicators, although refined pieces of machinery, are not very precise, so there are many limits to their capabilities.

That's why connoisseurs can make the difference...

What do you base this assertion on? I can't recall hearing that said in any of the shows, or even in a novel.

Replicators are programmed to *someone's* standard of what a good dish would taste like. Might not be your standard. Might be that a cook who knows you can make food you like better, but it's not actually superior in taste, just a better experience from your perspective.

My rule on replicators is that a device like a transporter can scan the molecular structure of an object and can store that pattern. With some exceptions -- there are materials (like gold-pressed latinum) that cannot be replicated for whatever reason. A basic replicator cannot perform this scanning function, but can create any object that can fit on its materializer platform.

If you know how and have the right kind of software, you can create a replicator pattern from scratch, or modify the way a replicator functions. But this takes highly specialized skills. And it gets prohibitively difficult to create extremely complex items without significant computer power and a lot of time. This is how new isolinear chips and other devices are made -- far more efficient than how current semiconductor chips are made, but still requiring a cyclic design/development phase.

Replicators come in a variety of sizes and complexities. For example, some are optimized to produce a relatively narrow range of materials, but to do so quickly. Others are designed for tremendous precision, as is required when producing medical tools and substances.

My $0.02

[Rayaru]

Someone who's been eating "real" food all his life, and then has a dish of replicated food will definetly realize the difference. Likewise, someone who has been wearing "real" clothes all his life will be sure to notice certian, very fine differences in the fabric of replicated clothes.

Back to uniforms.... I think they're made of a certain "Starfleet fiber" that's illegal (possibly impossible, or very difficult) to replicate in the Federation, so they're made by "hand" (i.e. not by replicator) back on Earth and given out to the officers when needed.

[KillerWhale]

Feasrius: IIRC, this info is either in the TNG tech manual, or in the TNG LUG core book. I definitely didn't make it up, I know it comes from an official or quasi-official source... But which, I can't remember

[Lancer]

Originally posted by KillerWhale
Feasrius: IIRC, this info is either in the TNG tech manual, or in the TNG LUG core book. I definitely didn't make it up, I know it comes from an official or quasi-official source... But which, I can't remember

There's a footnote in the TNG Tech Manual:

An example of the limitations of the replicator system is a line in "Sins of the Father" in which Picard claims to find replicated caviar inferior to the rel thing. (On the other hand, we wonder if the good captain could really tell the difference in a blind table test.)

In addition the Tech Manual states that replicators unse "extensive data compression and averaging techniques". While it doesn't state for a fact that this can effect the taste of a replicated dish I think the footnote quoted above is quite telling: IMO many people think they can tell the difference, but that may well be a 'psychosomatic' difference, i.e. they think replicated food tastes inferior, simply because they know it to be replicated.
Another factor could be that you are eating the exactly same food day in day out on a starship, as each steak, coffee or tomato soup is replicated from a never changing template. Each time you order a dish it tastes the same. That way many people could tend to assume they are eating something unreplicated, as soon as something tastes different from what they are used to, even if it is simply replicated from a slightly different template.

OTOH some people may indeed be able to tell the difference, just as some people can see the difference between a compressed picture (e.g. jpeg) and an uncompressed one from a mile away, while others may have to get closer to spot the differences.

Originally posted by Rayaru
Back to uniforms.... I think they're made of a certain "Starfleet fiber" that's illegal (possibly impossible, or very difficult) to replicate in the Federation, so they're made by "hand" (i.e. not by replicator) back on Earth and given out to the officers when needed.

Okay, but if that's the case, then what would be the special property of "Starfleet fiber" that makes them illegal or impossible to replicate? Do you have any theories on that?

[Dan Gurden]

Actually replicated food is quoted many times as not tasting like the real thing, but equally such imperfections it is also attributed to be the fault of inherant human snobishness by Aliens who feel they know better.

Personally I think its simply the difference between a decent instant coffee and fresh brewed (and I am including my own 'coffee snob' tendancies in this assumption).

Replicated is just as good as real, and serves the masses adequately everyday, but there is nothing like the real thing (possibly a 24th century slogan for the Ferengi owned Coca-Cola brand).

When it comes down to uniforms, I go replicated. With no taste issues at stake, its a simple matter of a laser fitting and at the press of a button, a new uniform is ready...

Uniform ripped when fighting your best friend in the throes of Ponn Farr?

Uniform ruined while absorbed by the tar-like form of distilled evil?

Your engineers dying nephew left difficuly blood stains on your lapel?

Just recycle your old uniform, and seconds later a new, clean and fresh uniform is ready for you to wear... Which is equally backed up by Voyager where the fibres of a uniform are all labeleed as Starfleet on an atomic scale. Try hand-sewing that label in, even Garak wasn't that good.

Of course this in no way impeeds your choice to have a tailored uniform if you choose...

[Rayaru]

Originally posted by Lancer
Okay, but if that's the case, then what would be the special property of "Starfleet fiber" that makes them illegal or impossible to replicate? Do you have any theories on that?

FYI, Dr. Crusher referrs to "starfleet fiber traces" in the episode where they think Picard got killed in a bar; I don't know the name of that episode off the top of my head.

It would be illegal, most likely, because Starfleet wouldn't want civillians with ill wishes to have their uniforms! Replicators sold in the Federation would probably be banned from producing uniforms, just as they would be for producing weaponry or illegal drugs. Perhaps, if the uniform isn't made of a molecule with a high enough molecular density (or other suitible technobabble) to prevent replication, they would unlock this feature aboard Starfleet ships and bases.

And there's also the consideration that an officer of the era would simply just *want* an authentic uniform rather than some replicated thing that might have been somebody's leftovers in a previous life!

Anyway, just musings...

[toadkiller]

With the current development of "smart fibers" it seems a safe bet that the uniforms have more built into them then just cotton or nylon. Perhaps climate control system or even some degree of protection from exploding helm stations.

But, it did seem clear that Garak made uniforms for folks - and come on, given the chance wouldn't you rather have a uniform made from an (ex?) Cardie spy than from the replicator! I'd be giving that thing a good scan to see what "special fibers" Garak had added for his own purposes though!

Acutally that's a neat story idea....

[Captain Novaes]

Originally posted by Lancer
I think the footnote quoted above is quite telling: IMO many people think they can tell the difference, but that may well be a 'psychosomatic' difference, i.e. they think replicated food tastes inferior, simply because they know it to be replicated.
Another factor could be that you are eating the exactly same food day in day out on a starship, as each steak, coffee or tomato soup is replicated from a never changing template. Each time you order a dish it tastes the same.

Ahh, it may be the physicist in me, but if you recognize the existence of some device being able to replicate food, or clothing down to their original Quantum Numbers (give or take a few sequencing errors), there´s no way anybody could tell the difference.

OTHO, it makes perfect sense that given a few years aboard a starship somebody will eventually order the same template of plomeek soup or the same template of steak or whatever. That is why Starfleet keeps galleys on it´s ships - every once in a while the Chef can add some templates to the computer menus ;-)

Originally posted by Lancer OTOH some people may indeed be able to tell the difference, just as some people can see the difference between a compressed picture (e.g. jpeg) and an uncompressed one from a mile away, while others may have to get closer to spot the differences.

That would require a very keen sense of taste. I know of a few animals that can smell blood even when it´s dilluted in thousands of liters of water (sharks, for example) and certains species of dog are able to track scents a few miles off; all those animals rely upon is a sense of smell which is able to tell the difference between a very small number of molecules in their enviroments.

Then again, every character in Star Trek seems very sure of his or her ability to tell replicated from original stuff. That I find very unlikely.

[KillerWhale]

I don't find this highly unlikely at all.

The biologist in me finds it highly unlikely that a piece of machinery might be able to replicate just every finesse of biological material. There's more chemical constituants in simple steak than you can think of - and I'm not even speaking of the structure of the steak.

Transporting people (dematerialze their constituants and rematerialize them) is another business because the constituants are there.

Replicating biological material from scratch so finely that nobody would find the difference seems unlikely to me given the technology available in Trek.

And tools, uniforms, manufactured objects are way coarser things to replicate than biological material. Not near as many data.

Just my two cents

[StyroFoam Man]

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[Captain Novaes]

Originally posted by KillerWhale
I don't find this highly unlikely at all.

The biologist in me finds it highly unlikely that a piece of machinery might be able to replicate just every finesse of biological material. There's more chemical constituants in simple steak than you can think of - and I'm not even speaking of the structure of the steak.

Ahh, but that´s kind of beside the point, isn´t it ? I mean, we know replicators are highly improbable !

Like I said, if we accept such a device as a replicator exists, then we should not try to rationalize why it is unlikely for such a device to operate. But once we accept replicators do exist and accept they operate by replicating Quantum Numbers of pre-existing templates, there should be no reason to believe someone could tell the difference, unless said someone has so keen senses that can differentiate individual molecules in a whole.

Possible, but at least to me, unlikely.

Then again, there was this guy in the Netherlands who won the Nobel by replicating photons from a distance. The processes we are talking about here are different, but who knows where t´Hooft´s research will lead us in 370 years ?

[KillerWhale]

Entirely true

Let's say that if replicators were that precise, they could be used to create life, yet it's stated to be impossible. Moreover, many characters say on screen that an educated palate can make the difference. Add the reference in the encylopedia...

All this makes a strong case against replicated food being exactly the same as the real thing.

Let's say that's my own interpretation of Occam's razor