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Thread: For the Enterprise Detractors

  1. #1
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    Question For the Enterprise Detractors

    Okay, for those folks that like bashing <i>Enterprise</i> - you know, those of you that say that every episode sucks and wail and moan about continuity - what can be done to slake your violent thirst for canon?

    Everyone has an opinion, but put your money where your mouth is: what would you do to make <i>Enterprise</i> worth watching (in your opinion)?

    While I agree that Berman and Braga are more-or-less continuity whores, chipping away at the Great Bird's vision of the future as presented 30+ years ago, what would you see done? Most of the original series was awful, and I don't mean just the "special" effects. The acting was poor, few of the storylines were actually any good, and even fewer were related to one another in the sense of providing continuity. I will admit that some were good, but most laid there like a stinking carp.

    For you folks that want to see something different on <i>Enterprise</i>, what is it? Do you want a rehashing of the original seriies? TNG? DS9? Voyager? I want to know, if only for my own personal understanding.

    mactavish out.
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  2. #2
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    Thumbs down

    Originally posted by mactavish
    Okay, for those folks that like bashing <i>Enterprise</i> - you know, those of you that say that every episode sucks and wail and moan about continuity - what can be done to slake your violent thirst for canon?
    Can anyone share an opinioin, or only those that "bash" ENT, or say that "every episode sucks," and "wail and moan about continuity" at every turn? With an inflamatory intro like this do you really expect to get anything productive out of this thread? It sounds like you're more interested in "bashing" ENT detractors than getting any real opinions or opening a dialog.

    At least, that's how it came across to me.

    When you want a legitimate thread about discussing some of the shortcoming of ENT and how to make it better, let me know. I'd be happy to share some of my ideas and my opinion.

    Word of warning -- when the personal attacks start this thread gets closed.
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  3. #3
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    Well in an effort to make this not an inflamtory thread.

    I think B&B have missed to boat on the building of the Federation and the Romulan War.

    I don't think they would need Ferengi or Borg had they gone back and done more eps like Ceasre Fire, Shadows of PJ(can't remeber the name), The Andorian Incident and Future Tense.

    These eps all had me glued to me TV excited and happy.

    But the whole Temporal Cold War storyline and the endless 24th century stuff creeping in has left me flat.

    It is like they don't have confidence in their creatin so they hae to keep dragging in other stuff.

    Between the Romulan/Earth War, the building of the Federation and the tons of oncepts from TOS that could be explored (Orions anyone?) they could have had easily 7 seasons worth of interesting material.

    I really can't stand that there are no shields, so instead they have polarized hull plating, which leads to "Hull Plating at 75%" statements. Other than for transporters, how is this different than shields?

    So in summary I think Enterprise could be better if it was its own show exploring the beginings of what we came to love later, instead of using buzz words and flashy things like BORG to get attention they can't hold. IMHO

    Also Mac, I love TOS for all its cheesyness and campiness as well as its' very wellw ritten eps too. It is not the ugly stepchild of Star Trek, that is reserved for Voyager

    I kid, I kid

  4. #4
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    Hmmm...how to fix Enterprise, eh?

    In actual fact, I stopped watching it about halfway through the first season (after "Acquisition"), so I'm perhaps not the person best qualified to answer.

    My original beef, I think, was with the placing and the concept - and the fact they called the ship Enterprise. The continuity stuff just added to my melancholia.

    My personal preference would have been to give one of my favourite Trek actors, George Takei, a full-time job and create a new show called: Star Trek: Excelsior, covering the adventures of said ship under Captain Hikaru Sulu's able command.

    Set from, say, 2305 - 2312, it could have covered Sulu's last tour of duty, and explored a lot of wide-open territory for integration between TOS and TNG. First contact with the Betazoids, Bolians, etc - could have been great.

    I even had an idea for a "cute" episode where the famous Captain Sulu was meeting with the Federation president in Paris, and got caught doing a lecture on Federation values to a group of school students. One of them, around 5 or 6 years old, pipes up and asks a salient question, to which Sulu responds, and says: "What is your name, son?". To which, of course, the child replies: "Jean-Luc Picard".

    Would have been cheesy, I know. But fun

    I'm afraid comparisons of ENT to TOS don't work very well with me. As an avowed TNG heretic, I can count on one hand the number of TOS episodes I'll actually sit down and enjoy - the others are purely for reference material, from my POV.

    Still, I think Star Trek: Excelsior would have had a lot going for it (as long as they transferred Janice Rand off the ship, of course. I still cringe every time she says: "Should we report this, sir?" in ST6:TUC)

    Anyway...that's my two slips.

    (And not too inflammatory, I hope!)
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  5. #5
    Well, as B&B and ENT bashers go, I can admit to being one as much as anyone...

    I'll also admit that I was highly skeptical about the whole premise of ENT from the beginning. However, I did watch most of the first season before gave up, so I did give ENT a fair chance.

    The problem with ENT isn't really that it's set in the past. I might not have liked the idea, but I probably would have come around to it if it had been remotely interesting. ENT is particularly interesting to me, however. In fact, it isn't even good Trek. The vast majority of episodes seems to be endless reruns of the same old Trek plots we've seen again and again.

    Like I said, the problem isn't that it's set in the past. The problem is that it refuses to stay there, what with time travel, Ferengi, Borg, etc...

    If ENT wants to take place in the past, then it needs to establish itself within that past and set up a framework of what is going on. Obviously humans and vulcans are all around with Andorians making the odd appearance, but we hear very little of other later members of the Federation such as Tellarites or Centaurans. Or how about Bolians?

    ENT badly needs a background to play itself against, but it has nothing but cold, empty space. That doesn't make for a very interesting premise. And the Temporal Cold War is thrown in there only so often.

    Now, this could be due to the desire for episodic shows where there is little or no connection from one episode to the next. But try looking at the popular shows on screen today. Take "24", for example. 24 is serial and complex that you'll have no chance of making head or tails of what is going on if you miss an episode. And that's one of the hottest shows around today. If B&B want a fanbase for ENT, then the episodic approach is the completely wrong way to go because viewers just don't care about characters and shows that hit the reset button when the end credits roll every week. I mean, everybody will be wondering what Jack Bauer will have to endure next week and how he will survive the current crisis, but none will about Archer because he and his crew are quite fine at the end every time. Not much suspense there.

    The really bad thing in ENT is that B&B seem to insist on seeing internal continuity within Trek as a limitation to their creativity. But continuity can be wonderful if used well, and sadly most shows use it much better than Trek. Take a look at Worf's history during TNG and DS9, for example. Worf's impact on the Klingons has been profound to say the least. In TNG's "Redemption" it is clear that Gowron would never have been leader of the Klingons if not for Worf, so it is bitterly ironic that Worf ends up having to kill him in DS9's "Tacking into the Wind" so that the Federation and their allies can win the Dominion War. But note that it is more than just ironic. After all, in that episode Dax reminds Worf that the Klingon Empire deserves to die if people like Worf are willing to accept leaders like Gowron. The significance of that is that Gowron would have been killed long ago if not for Worf, so doesn't he have some responsibility for the situation Gowron has put them all in? The point is right there and cannot be easily ignored... oh, and it would never have worked if the writers hadn't played heavily on the established continuity. And that's just one example in Trek.

    Another example I like is in TNG's "The Drumhead" where Admiral Satie carefully uses Picard's background against him, particularly his assimilation by the Borg. It's a very minor point, but within attention to the show's continuity it wouldn't have been possible because there would have been no other way to signal to the viewers just how far Satie was willing to go to destroy her opponents. Just making any old comment about Picard's past wouldn't have been as effective because we wouldn't have known the story from Picard's point of view, and obviously twisting the circumstances and the truth to suit her purposes is the very point of the episode.

    There is very little use of any such background material in ENT. No, obviously you can't reference things that are yet to take place, but many socieities and much background data has been established in Trek that might have been used. We could have seen Archer and his crew struggle with some of the problems that no longer exist in Kirk's time or even Picard's. References to the T'Kon empire or the Iconians would be just as relevant in Archer's days as at any later time. For example, we could have seen story take place on the nice planet Drema IV. That would have been a bit tragic to those of us who saw it's population die in TNG's "Pen Pals".

    Not all ENT episodes are terrible, of course. My favorite so far is "Dear Doctor" because it actually does what ENT should be doing - it explores the principles of what will one day become the Prime Directive. In Archer's day there is no Prime Directive, so when faced with a dilemma he cannot casually pull the Picard routine and quite the Prime Directive. But it is interesting to watch because the episode establishes the validity of a principle like the Prime Directive. In TNG the PD is almost always a major problem, so it's pretty interesting to see a Trek show where the crew is in trouble because there is no such rule. That's the sort of stories ENT should be aiming for. Sadly it does it only very rarely...'
    "We think we've come so far... Torture of heretics, burning of witches - it's all ancient history. Then, before you can blink an eye, suddenly it threatens to start all over again..."

    - Captain Picard, "The Drumhead" (TNG).

  6. #6

    Talking mmm....

    I'll add-

    better characters-I know TOS was lame most of the time but I cared about the characters.


    Stop making it a 24th century show set in the 22nd Century (no transporters, no phasers, no communicators, no tricorders, no shuttlepods, no shields, no artifical gravity, no shapshifters, no time travel, no Akira, no Borg, No Ferengi, no All Good Things Uniforms)

    This show is supposed to be set in the past

    Show that past.

  7. #7
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    Smile

    I was not intending to bash the detractors, but I must admit that I'm really tired of naysayers with nothing to offer but negativity.

    I know that the post came across as abrupt... I meant it that way. But I also meant it when I said that I wanted suggestions on how to make it better. There are a lot of <i>Star Trek</i> fans here, and many think that they have the perfect recipe for a Series. So, what is it?

    I want to hear those ideas, and for a number of different reasons. I am no fanboy, but I take a certain amount of satisfaction in watching a <i>Trek</i> series that isn't all about "let's save the universe ever other week."

    I was personally appalled by the whole Borg angle - until I saw it. I thought that it was well-crafted and relatively well-executed. I think the whole "getting around continuity by not calling them the Borg" was a bit weak, but the premise (that it was the crashed sphere from <i>First Contact</i>) was actually pretty sound.

    I am not much of a Scott Bakula fan, but he is far from the worst actor that the could have put in the big chair. Sure some of the characters are underdeveloped, but <i>TNG</i> began the same way. That show reeked for almost three full years before it developed into a viable series. <i>Enterprise</i> hasn't even had two years yet.

    The whole franchise is failing under B&B, and anyone can see it. The simple fact is, however, that the entire franchise has been "reworked" to meet what B&B believe to be the expectations of a new generation of Trek fans. Are they wrong? Partially. Most kids that aren't geeks won't watch it anyway. The die-hard fans, however, demand that every show adhere to a strict continuity begun over thirty years ago. That's simply not practical. <i>Enterprise</i> was never intended as a show for <i>Star Trek</i> fans. Hence the fact that its not called <i>Star Trek: Enterprise</i>.

    So I guess what I'm saying is if you don't like it, then say which parts you didn't like, don't get all second grade and say, "It sucked because its not <i>Star Trek</i> and it breaks the rules." Better still, make some suggestions as to what you would like to see. I know it doesn't make any difference to the Paramount folks, but at least its something that most of the fans here can relate to.

    So anyway, I apologize if I came across as a basher basher. Hey, I can't dance. I can't dance and I don't like to dance. So, do I dance and then complain about how bad it sucked? No, I keep my pasty white ass off the dance floor and don't discuss it! I guess I'd rather hear some criticisms that don't begin "I thought it sucked." If you don't like it, then don't watch it.

    mactavish out.

    P.S. Aldaron, I agree with you. I wanted to see the <i>Captain Sulu Adventures</i> as well (he was one of the characters that I liked from the original series).
    Our country's past progress has been the result, not of the mass mind applying average intelligence to the problems of the day, but of the brilliance and dedication of wise individuals who applied their wisdom to advance the freedom and the material well-being of all of our people.

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  8. #8
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    I was personally appalled by the whole Borg angle - until I saw it.
    Me too... I thought it was nauseating, but when I saw it, it just worked. Was a very well thought out episode that shows what this series has the potential to do.

    I have the same feeling about this new third season strategy, btw. But who knows, maybe this will "just work" too.
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    How about instead of of continually re-hashing old foes to bring dragging ratings up the show does what, I assume, it was meant to...Show the formation of the Federation. My problem comes from the fact that B&B are using, and abusing, concepts that have been pretty much laid in stone. To my knowledge there is very little info that has been said about the actual founding of the Fed, they have a whole ship load of plots there.

    The Romulan War, which they have already futsed up already IMO, would have been another option.

    How about going back to situations mentioned in TOS. Why was there so much tension about Koridan mining rights? DS9 had some really good Orion Syndicate eps, lets bring in some good sci-fi gangster ideas into the story (and I'm not talking "A piece of the Action" either, so don't mention it.) How about an ep that actually explains the Axanari, rather then just having them as the latex villians of the week? This alone gives you a "new" race (unseen, but mentioned) and an interesting event the brief conflict.

    My gripe is that Enterprise is supposed to be the history of the Trek universe. So far we have only one new race, the Suliban (and a pretty dumb idea. IMO.) Everything else has been filled up with Andorians (which I don't mind so much,) Klingons (didn't we have enough of these guys shoved down our throats in TNG and DS9?), and (God help us) Ferengi. And now the Borg!!! Where are all the new ideas I hoped for when I heard about this show?

    One thing that does get me is the "well they got away with it because they didn't actually say Borg???!! What the hell does this mean? If it walks like a Borg, talks like a Borg and assimilates like a Borg...It probably is a Borg and doesn't need an intro! This is a very poor defense.

    Anyway you asked what I wanted. If you need more examples of what B&B could do to make it intersting let me know, these were just off the top of my head...Too bad the Trek writers (the show) don't use theirs for anything more then hat racks.

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  11. #11

    HAHA

    Go get em liz

  12. #12
    First you have to look at the goals the show wants to achieve

    1) Keep Star Trek Fans Happy and Watching
    2) Get new viewers

    I see these as the things needed to get to the goals.

    1) More Action – The show is slow – I’ve heard this from everyone that does not watch.
    It’s SciFi there is plenty of opportunity for getting everyone excited.

    2) Show the creation of the Federation – the political impacts of decisions.

    3) More races on the crew – make it a zoo. The interplay could make for great stories – it always does. This could tie in with 2.

    4) Build on things the crew accomplishes. Give it more of a Series feel. I hate to say this but learn sometime from the soaps.

    5) Explore the Romulan war or maybe a local conflict we have not hear of before and why a united front was needed by the fed.

    6) LESS TIME TRAVEL

    This is my take. Maybe I’m wrong but I think they are creating the show for themselves and not for the viewers.

  13. #13
    IMO...

    So this might get a little messy.

    One of the things that I said during many of the Voyager bashing sessions I endured to speak to other Trekkies, was that we are all suffering fro Trek Burn-out. Too much for too long.

    The main downside is that this has left the in-house writing talent a little stale. And they often use old ideas again. Normally this is not a problem Trek has re-written old ideas regularly from TOS onward. Some more successful than others, some more cleverly disguised.

    IF my only choice is to expand the Enterprise universe, then my Sole desicion would be to re-institute the script submissions policy that ran through TNG, DS9 and most of Voyager. Let new talent get a break, fresh ideas be injected into the mix, and use the in-house writing talent to mentor this new generation of writers and help guide their writing more suitably for TV production budgets...

    However, if I could go back in time and refresh the Trek genre, then I would suggest a hiatus of Trek. concentrate on the movies, and the VHS/DVD merchandising for a while.

    Instead of getting out a prequel series I would use the vast prop/CGI/script store-house they must have. Make a short series of 'TV Movies' along the lines of the 2-part specials. Maybe 4-5 a year...

    One could be set on Sulu's Excelsior, another aboard a Romulan Warbird in the 24th century, maybe another on a 29th Century Timefleet ship... Make each one different, new faces, new talent, spend a little, knowing the repeat value and individual sell-through is better (no accompanying series to collect), maybe they could revisit old characters, old settings... But more importantly they could experiment, and guage from fan (and non-fan) reception what source material could be expanded on for a newer series later on?

    This also takes advantage of the unique nature of the Trek Franchise in that fan or non-fan, english-speaker or not, there are very, very few people who are unaware of what Star Trek actually is... And very few franchises that have such an inbuilt fan base that can support a show without regular re-occuring characters.
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  14. #14
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    Originally posted by Dan Gurden

    One could be set on Sulu's Excelsior, another aboard a Romulan Warbird in the 24th century, maybe another on a 29th Century Timefleet ship... Make each one different, new faces, new talent, spend a little, knowing the repeat value and individual sell-through is better (no accompanying series to collect), maybe they could revisit old characters, old settings... But more importantly they could experiment, and gauge from fan (and non-fan) reception what source material could be expanded on for a newer series later on?

    Actually, Dan, this would make an excelent RPG campaign. Where´s my notebook ?? Ideas are starting to flow freely...
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  15. #15
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    One could be set on Sulu's Excelsior, another aboard a Romulan Warbird in the 24th century, maybe another on a 29th Century Timefleet ship... Make each one different, new faces, new talent, spend a little, knowing the repeat value and individual sell-through is better (no accompanying series to collect), maybe they could revisit old characters, old settings... But more importantly they could experiment, and guage from fan (and non-fan) reception what source material could be expanded on for a newer series later on?
    I said this a couple or three years ago, and I still think that it is a brilliant idea. Not only would there be more and different story opportunities, but there would also be the possibility of using new, perhaps previously untapped writing talent.

    I guess that great minds do tend to think alike!

    mactavish out.
    Our country's past progress has been the result, not of the mass mind applying average intelligence to the problems of the day, but of the brilliance and dedication of wise individuals who applied their wisdom to advance the freedom and the material well-being of all of our people.

    -Conscience of a Conservative, Barry Goldwater

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