Warp Scales the (absolute scale)

[buck rogers]

I know that there 2 warp scales but i really think there is only one scale. The reason is this. In the original series at no time ever was it stated just how fast any warp factor was. simply that it was faster than light. With the exception of warp factor one which was stated to be the speed of light. Now in 1987 Gene Roddenberry states that he wants warp 10 as the absolute speed that the new ship can go. The warp scale that was "official" was actually fan conjecture that was later used by the FASA people as the real warp scale. The TNG creators made the real "official" scale with the creation of the TNG tech manual. Here's where things get scary. In ENTERPRISE they use the warp scale established in the TNG. Hmmm? That is when I decided that since we know they use the warp scale established in TNG in the TNG and also in ENT places 200 years beore TNG that maybe the used it in Kirk's era too. Since nobody in the original series era ever brings this to light it seems logical to assume this series also uses th same scale as the other trek eras. So in conclusionI decided that (at least in my trek universe) there should only be one scale. That it should be the one established by the producers and creators of the the show. So how was the old Enterprise able to go warp 11 in the old show? Easy the Kelvans did modify the ship. Oh yeah then theres "Star Trek V: The Final Frontier"! So need I go on? Below I created a system to help explain how I use the warp scale.
HYPERDRIVE CLASSES
Class velocity (c) distance traveled (per minute in light-years)
20 5.5x10^5 1.0 (just about as slow as they go)
10 1.1x10^6 2.0
7.5 1.6x10^6 3.0
5.0 2.1x10^6 4.0
4.0 2.7x10^6 5.0 (equal to the Quantum Slipstream Drive)
3.0 3.9x10^6 7.5
2.0 5.5x10^6 10
1.0 1.1x10^7 20
0.75 1.6x10^7 30
0.5 2.1x10^7 40 (Millennium Falcon’s top speed on a good day!)
Cost to fit a ship with a hyperdrive is always size of the ship. Setting a course with a hyperdrive requires perfect a hyperspace field parallel phase lock. This ordinarily is accomplished with the use of computer-controlled adjustments using a navicomputer Space Science (Astrogate) TN 10 modified by the ships operations reliability modifier.

SUBSPACE FOLDS (A.k.a. a subspace shortcut.) AND THE (absolute) WARP SCALE (Warp 10+)
Contrary to some sources there is only one warp factor scale. By using “Transwarp” or speeds above warp 10 starships can attain great supraluminal velocities. This is very dangerous to any ship attempting it because of the severe stress placed on the vessel. But by using certain naturally occurring subspace “folds” caused by continual warpdrive interaction with subspace through certain areas in space these folds can dramatically improve a starship’s velocity by taking the shortcut. Folds can only exist where warp drives and subspace interact with each other or subspace has been subjected to stress of some kind thereby causing any ship to sink into a deeper layer of subspace and causing it to be hyper accelerated. This means that in deep unexplored space folds may not be found which is why U.S.S. Voyager NCC-74656 couldn’t use on to return home. Starships with more advanced and more reliable 24th century warp drives can’t exceed warp 10 as they are designed with safety features to prevent subspace or dangerous accelerations beyond warp 10. On older 22nd, & 23rd century starships however these features weren’t available yet. It was not uncommon for such things as anti-matter imbalances or explosions to cause subspace interphase pockets, temporal rifts, or even wormholes to form if the ships warp system was not properly calibrated. On more than one occasion a starship has found a naturally formed subspace fold caused by subspace instabilities of some kind and found itself stuck in a dangerous situation. Using charted natural folds does not require a test. Known folds only exist between systems listed in all capital letters in the star charts. Any ship traveling along this path will be in the subspace fold while in a fold simply double the ships warp factor, i.e. warp 4.99825 (213.5c) would be 9.9965 (9574.18c). The NX-01 did this on her historic maiden voyage to Q’ronos. To find a natural fold have the player make a Science, Space (Astrogation) test, TN 20 (known space), TN 25 (explored space), & TN not possible for (unexplored space). Marginal success is needed to locate one, but only results in the ship losing 1d6 points of structure per minute and shields won’t help. Only a complete success avoids this and Warp velocity is now Warp 10+. The U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701 has set several speed records and exceeded Warp 10 reaching Warp 11 on several occasions and once even reaching Warp 14.1. This maneuver however is not under any circumstances safe. If the ships crew decides to try to force the ship beyond warp 10 without a natural subspace shortcut the following test must be made. First to determine if the engines and the ship can take the stresses involved have the engineer make an Engineering (Propulsion), and a Engineering (Structural) test TN 10+ Transwarp factor. Failure in either test results in the ship losing 1d6 points of structure per minute for every warp factor above ten the ship is at. With modifications to the engines and or navigational deflector starship can take the Blind Luck trait.

[buck rogers]

I borrowed the transwarp scale from http://www.ditl.org to illustate higher warp scales that Kirks Enterprise used while not violating the warp 10 barrier that the TNG established. which was later broken by voyagerTIME TO TRAVEL
Transwarp Factor Equals (xc) To nearby star (5 ly) Across Sector (20 ly) Across Federation (8,000 ly) To Andromeda (2 million ly)
11 32,561 1.3 hours 5.4 hours 89.7 days 136.6 years
12 47,474 55.4 mins 3.7 hours 61.6 days 42.1 years
13 67,156 39.2 mins 2.6 hours 43.5 days 29.8 years
14 92,588 28.4 mins 1.9 hours 31.6 days 21.6 years
15 124,852 21.1 mins 1.4 hours 23.4 days 16.0 years
16 165,140 15.9 mins 1.1 hours 17.7 days 12.1 years
17 214,756 12.2 mins 49.0 mins 13.6 days 9.3 years
18 275,115 9.6 mins 38.2 mins 10.6 days 7.3 years
19 347,749 7.6 mins 30.2 mins 8.4 days 5.8 years
20 Infinite An object at warp 20 travels at infinite speed, occupying all points in the universe simultaneously
21 11,267,725 14.0 secs 56.0 secs 6.2 hours 64.8 days
22 14,440,680 10.9 secs 43.7 secs 4.9 hours 50.6 days
23 18,304,103 8.6 secs 34.5 secs 3.8 hours 39.9 days
24 22,968,182 6.9 secs 27.5 secs 3.1 hours 31.8 days
25 28,554,861 5.5 secs 22.1 secs 2.5 hours 25.6 days
26 35,198,530 4.5 secs 17.9 secs 2.0 hours 20.8 days
27 43,046,721 3.7 secs 14.7 secs 1.6 hours 17.0 days
28 52,260,814 3.0 secs 12.1 secs 1.3 hours 14.0 days
29 63,016,748 2.5 secs 10.0 secs 1.1 hours 11.6 days
30 Infinite An object at warp 30 travels at infinite speed, occupying all points in the universe simultaneously
31 2.79 x 109 56.6 msec 226.4 msec 1.5 mins 6.3 hours
32 3.41 x 109 46.3 msec 185.1 msec 1.2 mins 5.1 hours
33 4.14 x 109 38.1 msec 152.4 msec 1.0 mins 4.2 hours
34 5.00 x 109 31.5 msec 126.1 msec 50.4 secs 3.5 hours
35 6.01 x 109 26.2 msec 105.0 msec 42.0 secs 2.9 hours
36 7.19 x 109 22.0 msec 87.8 msec 35.1 secs 2.4 hours
37 8.55 x 109 18.5 msec 73.8 msec 29.5 secs 2.1 hours
38 1.01 x 1010 15.6 msec 62.4 msec 24.9 secs 1.7 hours
39 1.19 x 1010 13.2 msec 52.9 msec 21.2 secs 1.5 hours
40 Infinite An object at warp 40 travels at infinite speed, occupying all points in the universe simultaneously
anyway in "Threshold".

[buck rogers]

Also I wanted to point out that in my (humble) opinion i think that warp drives in the 24th century are designed to be safer and not faster. Since we know that 23rd century warp systems weren't safe as was shown in TOS and movies they were prone to creating wormholes [ST: TMP], creating temporal rifts and other dangerous problems that could destroy the ship!

[Sea Tyger]

Personally, I subscribe to the "redefinition of warp factors."

TOS and earlier. wf^3 = multiple of the speed of light "C"

TNG and beyond. wf^(10/3) = multiple of C**

** This is only valued for warp factors up to wf9. Beyond wf9, it looks like TPTB just drew a curved line that approaches infinity as it nears wf10. I have yet to determine any pattern to the numbers given for warp factors above wf9.

Simple as that.

[buck rogers]

This doesn't explain (not that anything ever will) ST:V. Besides using 2 scales only brings us back to the question of why they use the same scale on ENT as they do in the TNG era, but then for reasons never mentioned change the scale in TOS era. Remember the cubed scale was always conjecture, and made up by fans. The official scale didn't come out until Gene Roddenberry told Rick Sternbach that the TNG scale was the offical scale he wanted. This is why they use that scale on ENT. This is what got me to wondering about the whole two scales thing in the first place. Not saying there isn't two scales. I'm just pointing out that in the orginal series it was never mentioned how fast warp factors added up too. I think its worth noting that having two scales is partly rooted in fan based conjcture.

[Sea Tyger]

Okay, this is the third try on this response.

First, I think that on-screen usage of warp factors higher than 10 in TOS makes the case for two scales.

Second, I think the dtil.com warp speed chart is absurd, and, to use your argument, is as much conjecture as anything else.

Third, the only speed reference in Enterprise that I'm aware of is "Neptune and back in 6 minutes." The maximum distance between Earth and Neptune is 2,913 million miles, meaning a travel distance of about 5,826 million miles. Using the MCU, that's 146 seconds at warp 5 (214c)...2m26s...maybe add in another minute for accel and decel, but you're still way off.

Using OCU, however, your travel time is about 250 seconds at warp 5 (125c)...4m10s...adding in your minute for accel and decel, and you have over 5 minutes...which would easily be translated into Trip's statement.

To me, that proves that Enterprise is using the TOS warp scale of wf^3 = xc.

[C5]

Actually, I think there's a scene in Broken Bow where Archer states that the Enterprise is travelling at 30,000,000 kilometers per seconds, which is 100 times the speed of light.
However, I can't remember whether they were travelling at warp 4 (which would be TNG scale then) or warp 4.5 (TOS scale then).

[Capt Daniel Hunter]

The are using the TOS scale on ENT. Mike Sussman (one of the show's staff) recently mentioned this on the Trek BBS.

[buck rogers]

Well don't have a cow little man I wasn't sugessting it was mandatory that you had to use the absolute scale. You obviously think its "absurd" and that is okay. As for the ENT reference my mistake, I thought they were at warp 4 when Archer made the 30,000,000 km a second comment which would put them in the TNG scale. Also an article in the Star Trek Magazine about the road to warp five made several references to the NX-01 being able to reach warp 5 which was he put it over 200 times the speed of light. This is why I thought they had decided to use the TNG scale. But it still don't explain how they got to Q'ronos in only four days (warp 5 in the OCU scale 1.36 light-years). As far as I can remember there are no star systems that close to earth. Hmmm? Of course my scales are conjectural, but at least they attempt to explain "little" inconsistensies that you would say aren't conjecture! Using TOS scale please explain ST:V !!!!

[buck rogers]

Looks by using the OCU scale at warp 4.3 it would take about six minutes to go from earth to neptune and back. I can accept two scales although this still doesn't explain inconsistensies with the shows and movies. so I still think that should be addressed if no other reason to have continuity. I like the idea of subspace shortcuts. Only available in well travelled areas of space because warp drives have some technobabble effect on subspace along space routes in these areas. This would explain how Archer could travel a hundred times faster than he should have been able to because local conditons were right to form a "subspace fold" or whatever nicely worded technobabble sounds good. it would also kind of explain why Voyager couldn't get home as fast. Still don't explain ST:V, but I doubt that movie could ever be explained. Anyway I look forward to more opinions on this subject.

[Capt Daniel Hunter]

Hey chill out. Just because someone disagreed with your pet theory doesn't give you an excuse to start namecalling.

By the way, the two scales thing isn't fan-based conjecture. The TNG tech manual mentions it, and it's generally accepted by Sternbach and co, who pretty much came up with the idea in the first place.

As for Star Trek 5, well that's just one big huge f-up from the get go. But 'fan conjecture' suggests that the Enterprise went through some sort of wormhole or spatial rift to get where it was going.

[Sea Tyger]

Originally posted by buck rogers
Well don't have a cow little man....

Thank you for resorting to personal attacks when you lose an argument. I was simply debunking your theory, and wasn't insinuating anything else. That's why I used mathematics to back up my point.

As far as inconsistencies go, well, they're inconsistencies. Unfortunately, not every writer is as diligent as we'd like them to be...and I've always been of the opinion that you should never let hard science get in the way of good storytelling. So, I put up with the mistakes (like getting from Earth to Q'onos in four days).

Of course, those sorts of mistakes are easily explained away by fandom when they're not explained in the show (like the subspace "shortcut" idea, or a sort of "jet stream" concept).

And, no. Nothing can explain STV. But, hey, Gene considered it apocryphal to the ST universe, anyway. So, in that sense, it doesn't count.

Oh, and for the record. I'm 6'3" 250lbs, with size 13 shoes and a 7 1/2 hat size. So, I'm not little by any stretch of the imagination (well, unless you're Shaq); once again, you're off the mark. And if you think that's big, you should see the size of my ego.

[Don Mappin]

Everyone please calm down. buck, please dismiss with the name calling in the future.

[Sea Tyger]

Originally posted by Don Mappin
Everyone please calm down. buck, please dismiss with the name calling in the future.

Well, at least I didn't pull a Dixie Chicks and say I was ashamed to be from the same state as him.

Just kidding, buck. Nothing can make me ashamed to be a Missourian. Not even St. Louis.

[buck rogers]

Sorry for sounding offensive, that was not ment to name calling, just my off the wall sense of humor. If I offended you then I apologize.Lord knows it wouldn't be the first time. Sounds like we have more in common than just being from Missouri, I'm 6'1" and 245 lbs. I don't wear hats though! Most people are "little" to me, and when you get called "Big guy" as much as I do, you take these terms for granted. Anyway I agree nobody will ever be able to explain ST:V!!! I read an article in the November 2001 issue of the Star Trek Magazine, on pg. 42. In that article Andre Bormanis remarks after a breif explanation of how fast warp facters are that the speed scale they planed to follow was the one established in the first season of TNG. That is where my confusion sprang from. I looked at it like this If 22nd and 24th century ships use the same scale then why not 23rd? That didn't make sense to me, and because it was never "onscreen" how fast warp speed were during that era anyway... well you get the idea. I guess thats what I get putting stock in a magazine article