Enterprise E in Combat (Warning: SPOILERS FOR THOSE WHO HAVE NOT SEEN NEMESIS)

[Capt. Anderson]

After watching that combat scene at the end, I need to know what happened to the shields of the mighty Sovereign used in Insurrection and First Contact. From an energy bubble to a tight fitting shield system that resembled polarized hull plating. What is the deal? The latter did not seem to give any protection what so ever for the Enterprise-E.

[General Chang]

Originally posted by Capt. Anderson
After watching that combat scene at the end, I need to know what happened to the shields of the mighty Sovereign used in Insurrection and First Contact. From an energy bubble to a tight fitting shield system that resembled polarized hull plating. What is the deal? The latter did not seem to give any protection what so ever for the Enterprise-E.

Hmmmmm..........that is a good question.

If you are referring to the visual effects aspect of it, the only thing I can possibly offer as an explanation....and probably one that will be blasted by NEMESIS' detractors, is that they left the visual effect out for dramatic purposes. I know it doesn't make much sense, but I have often heard one two many times how something may be omitted or included for sheer dramatic purpose.

Again, one can only offer possibilities as to what happened. I would venture to guess three possibilities.

1. Remember, Shinzon's first attack completely knocked out their warp drive. So, their combat power was effectively reduced. That is probably why their shields didn't hold so well during the battle. Impulse power for the sake of power and maneuvering is too little to spread so thinly.

2. Another possibility is that the Enterprise-E was running at high warp with shields down (doubtful though since the ship was at Red Alert from the time Picard was captured). But, the reason I say it as a possibility is to allow for extra energy to get that extra bit o' warp speed whilst it hauls tail to the Fleet waiting on the other side of the Rift.

3. One more possibility (to my knowledge not even mentioned in the novel), is that perhaps the Remans were able to create a sort of Quantum Torpedo of their own. This kinda ties in with my earlier essay about Shinzon seeing the effects of the Starfleet Q.T. first hand during their many engagements against the Dominion. (Hmmmm.....I am thinking this could make for an interesting sideline for my fan-fiction NEMESIS sequel.)


Again, these are only possibilities that may or may not make sense. That is the thing I LOVE about Star Trek. If the fans want to justify a scenario to themselves, and perhaps help others see what may or may not have happened, they can do so.
This kinda falls back on my theory about if NEMESIS were a stand alone movie with no ties to any sci-fi franchise. Without nearly 40 years of Star Trek history to fall back on, NEMESIS' failure at the box office, and with critics and potential fans would have been much more pronounced.

But, since NEMESIS is Star Trek, the fans can draw upon that vast history to answer certain questions for themselves...just like they did for another little known (sarcastic) Trek movie called "The Wrath of Khan."

Sorry, did I just go off on another tangent.

Respectfully,
General Chang

[darkwing duck1]

You know, there's another way to look at this:

the Enterprise took on a ship easily three times it's size and 4-5 times it's mass armed with 50+ disruptor banks and 20+ torpedo bays and ONLY lost 15-20 of itself in the process. It took a pounding that by rights should have reduced it to component parts (and WOULD most any other ship of similar stats).

Wimpy starship my a**! Big E did herself PROUD that day!

[buck rogers]

I must agree with darkwing. The Enterprise took on a ship almost as powerful as an Imperial Star Destroyer! I think she fared quite well considering. I also agree with the good generals analysis which is pretty much on the mark. The Enterprise was at a disadvantage frommthe begining. The Enterprise did outlast two romulan warbirds, and the Enterprise did manage to do a lot of damage to the Scimitar before Picard used the "Troi Maneuver" which is of course the act of crashing the ship into something.

[Capt. K. Vaughn]

Keep in mind that Shinzon wanted Picard alive. He could not do that by unleashing the full firepower against the E now could he. He needed Picard to live.

Shinzon had no such constraints against the Warbirds.

Regards,
CKV.

[C5]

About the shield effect thing, my take was that they had changed the shields design, to be much more fitting to the form of the ship. After all, it must cost much less energy to have tight, form-fitting shield all around the ship than a huge bubble making three time the ship's size. OTOH this would be more difficult to control by computer, explaining why this upgrade could not be made before (and is now only done on Sovereigns).

Then again, transporter and warp effects have been constantly changing from one movie and serie to another....

[Garet]

Remember the Enterprise had the left wing and nacelle of the romulan ship bounce off the right saucer section and nacelle during the fight. That was not just a little tap on the hull. I believe the Enterprise did very well. I agree that Shinzon was trying to capture the Picard so did not use full weapons.

[buck rogers]

I'm not so sure about the shield thing. The Enterprise A had hull conformal shileding that was 90 years in the past from the E's perspective. I think its a matter taste VFX wise. As far as Treknical reasons upgrades sound as good as any Shinzon did want Picard alive. I guess the Enterprise really did take a spanking!!! I just have one question. If the Enterprise had no shields and rammed shinzon I could see her taking damage, But it was stated that the Scimitar still had 70% shields.mSo what the hell happened? I mean if simply ramming a ship is so devastating then I'd have to seriously the strength of Trek weapons. Consider all the hits Scimitar's shields took from the combined assault from The Warbirds and Enterprise, which unleashed quantum and photon torpedoes as well as the fury of type XII phasers. I know the all missed alot but they also hit quite a few times. Then they all that only did 30% to his shields. Then the Enterprise just walks right up and parks on top of the Scimitar using the "Troi Maneuver" . Are trek shields just Ray shields like in Star Wars or what? I think that kind of damage could be inflicted by typical trek weapons considering what a Borg Cube did to the Melbourne at the battle of Wolf 359. Or what the Enterrise did to the Reliant in TWOK. But that was done with shields down on both vessels. The Scimitar still had 70% on her shields, so what happened???

[darkwing duck1]

Originally posted by buck rogers
If the Enterprise had no shields and rammed shinzon I could see her taking damage, But it was stated that the Scimitar still had 70% shields.mSo what the hell happened? I mean if simply ramming a ship is so devastating then I'd have to seriously the strength of Trek weapons. Consider all the hits Scimitar's shields took from the combined assault from The Warbirds and Enterprise, which unleashed quantum and photon torpedoes as well as the fury of type XII phasers. I know the all missed alot but they also hit quite a few times. Then they all that only did 30% to his shields. Then the Enterprise just walks right up and parks on top of the Scimitar using the "Troi Maneuver" .

Well, there was also the salvo Worf fired under Troi's guidance, which used the last torpedoes. That hit was a dead on shot, thanks to Troi's targeting information, and likely would have done more damage than a "glancing" hit. They also hit the body of the Scimitar, not the "wings", meaning even MORE likelihood of severe damage, at least to the shields. We know that it did enough damage to take out the cloaking system, so it must've been bad.

[General Chang]

Originally posted by buck rogers
I'm not so sure about the shield thing. The Enterprise A had hull conformal shileding that was 90 years in the past from the E's perspective. I think its a matter taste VFX wise. As far as Treknical reasons upgrades sound as good as any Shinzon did want Picard alive. I guess the Enterprise really did take a spanking!!! I just have one question. If the Enterprise had no shields and rammed shinzon I could see her taking damage, But it was stated that the Scimitar still had 70% shields.mSo what the hell happened? I mean if simply ramming a ship is so devastating then I'd have to seriously the strength of Trek weapons. Consider all the hits Scimitar's shields took from the combined assault from The Warbirds and Enterprise, which unleashed quantum and photon torpedoes as well as the fury of type XII phasers. I know the all missed alot but they also hit quite a few times. Then they all that only did 30% to his shields. Then the Enterprise just walks right up and parks on top of the Scimitar using the "Troi Maneuver" . Are trek shields just Ray shields like in Star Wars or what? I think that kind of damage could be inflicted by typical trek weapons considering what a Borg Cube did to the Melbourne at the battle of Wolf 359. Or what the Enterrise did to the Reliant in TWOK. But that was done with shields down on both vessels. The Scimitar still had 70% on her shields, so what happened???

Hot damn, I love this thread! (Pats self on back...and thanks Capt. Anderson for the inspiration to this thread.)

Star Trek has also utilized some sci-fi characteristics from other sci-fi sources....and I think it might explain some of the anomalous effects behind shield usage.


1. It is quite possible that starships utilize two types of shielding....(Navigational Deflectors notwithstanding.) Star Wars RPG's from West End Games referred to ships having both particle shielding (protection against physical attacks), and ray sheilding (protection against directed energy attacks). Now, this possibility only THINLY holds up. I would venture to say that the shields used aboard starships in Trek are mostly "ray shielding"...so they do well against phasers, disruptors, lasers and the like, and do decent against torpedo weapons. However, I have rarely seen their shields do well against asteroid impacts.
That would probably explain part one of why ships do much more damage (to their targets as well as themselves) during physical collisions.

2. Also, consider that deflector shields may also discriminate based on speed. In DUNE....the personal shields used by the Atreides will deflect rapid attacks against the user, but will allow slow moving attacks, and objects to pass right through the shield barrier. We have also seen evidence of this in STAR WARS Episode I, when the battle droids ceased their artillery assault on the Gungan shield bubble, and just walked right through, no problem. I surmise that the same applies to Trek shields on ships. Phasers are Light Speed weapons, and photon torpedoes travel at near light speed from an Impulse powered launch (can sustain superluminal velocities if fired at warp). In either case, energy and missile weapons travel at a much faster speed than starships during combat. A slow moving starship could probably pass right through another ships shield perimeter, and inflict the physical hull damage to the target. Now, at this point, one may ask, "Well, what if said attacking starship was travelling at warp? Would that mean that speed discriminate shield systems would deflect the incoming starship?" No, because a starship is hundreds of times the mass of a missile weapon, and of course could probably destroy an entire planet if it were to collide with said planet, with all anti-matter devices exploding. This whole speculation probably just opened a whole new can of worms, but that's why I love this thread so much.


BTW, that's clever. "The Troi Maneuver." LMAO!

Anyhoo...I hope that my theories behind shield physics make some sense. I have really seen a lot of good questions and postulations pop up in this thread. Please, let's keep it coming.


Respectfully,
General Chang

[odoital]

Originally posted by darkwing duck1
Well, there was also the salvo Worf fired under Troi's guidance, which used the last torpedoes. That hit was a dead on shot, thanks to Troi's targeting information, and likely would have done more damage than a "glancing" hit. They also hit the body of the Scimitar, not the "wings", meaning even MORE likelihood of severe damage, at least to the shields. We know that it did enough damage to take out the cloaking system, so it must've been bad.

Hmmn I still don't buy it. Those shots shouldn't have done much with the little damage the scimitar had.

However, I do think that the scimitar was written way over the top... I like over the top, but it was even much for me. A lot of things were unexplained in a way that was more annoying than compelling. Although I loved the look of the battle, the logic of it just didn't work for me.

[Typhonis 1]

Buck you are so overinflating the Scimitars power .No ship the Federation,Romulans,Dominion,Cardassians,Breen,Tho lians,Klingons,Borg,Species 8472,Hirogen,Kazon have has a snowballs hchance of beating a Star Destroyer one on one.The evidence is heavily and I mean HEAVILY weighed against it.

[odoital]

? huh ?

Originally posted by Typhonis 1
Buck you are so overinflating the Scimitars power .No ship the Federation,Romulans,Dominion,Cardassians,Breen,Tho lians,Klingons,Borg,Species 8472,Hirogen,Kazon have has a snowballs hchance of beating a Star Destroyer one on one.The evidence is heavily and I mean HEAVILY weighed against it.

[Sea Tyger]

Can we please keep the Star Trek vs. Star Wars debate out of this thread, Typhonis? I really don't care how one stacks up against another. They're two different universes, and have absolutely no business being co-mingled in a "Star Trek Chat" thread about the Enterprise-E's capabilities in combat.

Back on topic, the E-E suffers primarily by the fact that it's gone up against more powerful ships in the the three movies it was involved in.

I also think that people forget that the Sovereign-class is still an explorer, and not a pure warship. Against a warship of similar or larger size, it's going to have problems.

Versus the Son'a, the E-E also has to deal with "terrain" issues and the Son'a themselves cheating (subspace weapons). In Nemesis, the Eneterprise faces what can only be described as a plot device. In the scope of that episode/movie, I wouldn't give the Scimitar stats and force the PCs to come up with an alternative solution to defeat Shinzon.

So, while we've seen the Enterprise getting outmatched on screen, I'd say that it is partly because they were facing much tougher foes than we've seen before (in, say, the TV series vs. the E-D).

[Snake_Plissken]

well in any case in both Spacedock and the CODA system the Sovereign class is a tough ship. Especially in Starship- it is- by far- the most powerful non-"plot device species" ship. It could take on a D'Deridex warbird or a Negh'Var dreadnought and easily win.