Enterprise E in Combat (Warning: SPOILERS FOR THOSE WHO HAVE NOT SEEN NEMESIS)

[General Chang]

Captain Anderson brought up an interesting point about the Enterprise E's climactic battle with the Scimitar. He was disappointed by the end battle because he felt that the Enterprise E should not have been punked out by the Scimitar, when it stood up so well against the Borg Cube in First Contact.
I offer a couple of explanations as to why the Enterprise E did get the lower hand in NEMESIS.


1. In First Contact, the Enterprise E was fresh into the fight. The Borg cube was preoccupied with the currently attacking ships, having only a moment or two to attempt to focus on the new arrival. Also, Picard had inside knowledge on where to strike a Borg Cube. Not to mention, the Enterprise was constructed in advanced designs that the Borg had not seen yet.
Granted, the newer ASDB ships were there (Akira, Steamrunner), but the Enterprise was the creme de la creme of ASDB. As for the Defiant, well, it obviously did not perform as well against the Borg cube as the ASDB had anticipated.

2. The Scimitar knocked out the Enterprise's warp drive on its first attacks, thereby effectively depriving Enterprise of perhaps two thirds of its combat power, relying solely on Impulse Power.
Not to mention that the Enterprise did not have much of a tactical assessment beyond Worf's initial scans. (Myriad disruptor and torpedo banks, Primary and Secondary shields.) Now, the Remans had been utilized in the Dominion War, with Shinzon in command of various campaigns. It is very possible that he had seen the performance of Quantum Torpedoes first hand, and was thus able to create effective countermeasures against them. Not to mention that the Scimitar was able to fire with the cloaking device on....thus making it difficult for Enterprise to lock onto it. (Hmmm....perhaps he was able to recover secret archived plans to General Chang's prototype Bird of Prey in ST VI). For all intents and purposes, the Enterprise was definitely caught with its britches down.

Consider too, that in Insurrection, the Enterprise was fighting in the Briar Patch, which seemed to affect improperly configured ships attempting to travel at higher impulse velocities. Apparently, the Briar Patch also affected their photon torpedo sensors.

Basically the Enterprise is a damn good combat vessel, as long as it's had plenty of time to prepare, and can act in a timely manner. When it gets caught blind....well, we've seen the consequences....the Enterprise has to sacrifice something to win. Whether it be a warp core, or 30% of its saucer section.

Any other takers?

Respectfully,
General Chang

[Snake_Plissken]

very good analysis!

I think that if it were not for Picard knowing exactly where to strike at the Borg Cube the Enterprise-E would have joined its sister ships in "starship heaven"

[General Chang]

Thanks, Snake



Respectfully,
General Chang

[Rayaru]

On top of that, it wouldn't be much fun if the good guys could just lick the badguys without even breaking a sweat.

[Capt. Anderson]

Those some really good points.


Still hard to see that happen to such a fine vessel.

[General Chang]

Believe me, Captain. I share those sentiments. Very very disenheartening to see the pride of Starfleet get pimp-smacked around like it did....and when it came to sheer brute force, the Enterprise gave as good as it got....again, just at a sacrifice or two. Very disheartening indeed.

Respectfully,
General Chang

P.S. To Rayaru, your subject line said it the best:
"Suspension of Disbelief."

Q'apla!

[Capt. K. Vaughn]

This analysis seems reasonable.

Keep in mind that the Scimitar was designed to be a WARship and has many more dedicated systems to use when in battle. Yes, the Sovereign is a beautiful ship but unlike most of the other powers and their vessels it is a multi-purpose starship and therefore will not stack up quite as well against other starships dedicated to one role.

Regards,
CKV.

[General Chang]

Agreed, Captain Vaughn.

Yes, most all the other powers of the Alpha Quadrant design WAR ships. The Klingons, The Romulans/Remans, The Cardassians. Starfleet's only true WAR ship is the USS Defiant, and then at that, it is a veiled term. The official designation for the Defiant is an escort ship.

But I miss the point....the point being that Federation starships are true multi-purpose vessels, designed for exploration, diplomacy, and comfort, with defense/tactical actions as a secondary concern. One can always continue the age old debate of whether or not Starfleet is a military organization til the cows come home, but that is another thread....probably long since beaten into the dirt.

Granted the more advanced ships like the Sovereigns, Akiras, and Defiant classes are equipped with Quantum Torpedoes and upgraded phaser systems, but in truth, their weapons still do not pack the sheer ferocity of Klingon or Romulan ordnance. Starfleet will disable a ship if possible, destroy if necessary. The Klingons or the Romulans on the other hand have enemy destruction fully in mind with their weapons.

That is why I think a Vor'Cha class might give a Sovereign class a run for its money.

Respectfully,
General Chang

[Space_Cadet]

Originally posted by General Chang
Captain Anderson brought up an interesting point about the Enterprise E's climactic battle with the Scimitar. He was disappointed by the end battle because he felt that the Enterprise E should not have been punked out by the Scimitar, when it stood up so well against the Borg Cube in First Contact.
I offer a couple of explanations as to why the Enterprise E did get the lower hand in NEMESIS.


1. In First Contact, the Enterprise E was fresh into the fight. The Borg cube was preoccupied with the currently attacking ships, having only a moment or two to attempt to focus on the new arrival. Also, Picard had inside knowledge on where to strike a Borg Cube. Not to mention, the Enterprise was constructed in advanced designs that the Borg had not seen yet.
Granted, the newer ASDB ships were there (Akira, Steamrunner), but the Enterprise was the creme de la creme of ASDB. As for the Defiant, well, it obviously did not perform as well against the Borg cube as the ASDB had anticipated.

2. The Scimitar knocked out the Enterprise's warp drive on its first attacks, thereby effectively depriving Enterprise of perhaps two thirds of its combat power, relying solely on Impulse Power.
Not to mention that the Enterprise did not have much of a tactical assessment beyond Worf's initial scans. (Myriad disruptor and torpedo banks, Primary and Secondary shields.) Now, the Remans had been utilized in the Dominion War, with Shinzon in command of various campaigns. It is very possible that he had seen the performance of Quantum Torpedoes first hand, and was thus able to create effective countermeasures against them. Not to mention that the Scimitar was able to fire with the cloaking device on....thus making it difficult for Enterprise to lock onto it. (Hmmm....perhaps he was able to recover secret archived plans to General Chang's prototype Bird of Prey in ST VI). For all intents and purposes, the Enterprise was definitely caught with its britches down.

Consider too, that in Insurrection, the Enterprise was fighting in the Briar Patch, which seemed to affect improperly configured ships attempting to travel at higher impulse velocities. Apparently, the Briar Patch also affected their photon torpedo sensors.

Basically the Enterprise is a damn good combat vessel, as long as it's had plenty of time to prepare, and can act in a timely manner. When it gets caught blind....well, we've seen the consequences....the Enterprise has to sacrifice something to win. Whether it be a warp core, or 30% of its saucer section.

Any other takers?

Respectfully,
General Chang

Whoa.. u must be a real general!!

[General Chang]

Ummm.....not quite sure how to take that last entry. So I'll just chuckle nervously. heh heh

Respectfully,
General Chang

[Capt. K. Vaughn]

It probably could but then there are a number of variables that come into play on that one. I think the Sovereign would have an edge due to power availability but as with all things - that is only on paper.

In game and when one brings luck into it, anything can happen.

Regards,
CKV.

[General Chang]

Well....at one time I remember when a friend and I used to play the old FASA Starship Combat Simulator, I used a Construction Manual to create the Vor'Cha, and it was a nasty ship. Although this was waayyyyyyyyyy before the Sovereign was even a gleam in Paramount's eye.

I have never been able to play the LUG Trek combat system...neither the system in the Core Rule Books, nor the Spacedock manual...(proud to have downloaded that sucker).
But you are right, your point applies to RPG ships as well as real life warships and fighters, and the like: It doesn't matter how high tech or bad arsed your ship looks on paper, it's the crews that make it good or bad.

Now, I do play Bridge Commander on the PC, and most of the time, I can take a Vor'Cha and give a computer controlled Sovereign (set on High Intelligence) a run for its money. Playing it online....well, not only is there the opposing player's skill to take into consideration, but there is also lag, the possibility that the opponent might be cheating...arghhh. On a level playing field, (no lag, no cheaters), I can give a Sovereign a run for its money (before it unceremoniously blasts me out of the stars.) Many times, I will find myself in a Klingon BOP, or a Vor'Cha, or perhaps even a Romulan Warbird, pretending that I am Shinzon, about to kick the living targ poo out of Picard.

Respectfully,
General Chang

[Snake_Plissken]

Ah a Vor'Cha Vs. a Sovereign... interesting!

well if we use solely Starship as a reference and all things being equal (mainly, both ships' crews being of equal skill) then the Vor'Cha, I'm afraid, won't last long against the Sovereign. The Sovereign has ablative armor and regenerative shields, which have double the treshold value of the Vor'Cha's (!) The same thing applies to the Sovereign's torpedo strength, which is more than double that of the Vor'Cha. Succinctly put, the Sovereign can dish out more damage than the Vor'Cha and it can take more damage as well. The only slight advantage the Vor'Cha has over the Sovereign is that its tactical and helm maneuver ratings are each a point higher.

That being said I think that the Klingon ships in Starship are way undergunned, for a race of uber-warriors anyways. Even the Negh'Var is a relative wimp (!) I think that the concept for Klingons in Starship is that they have quantity over quality. The only standout quality Klingon ships seem to have is their overall durability. Starfleet may have its powerful Sovereign but it only has a handful, while the Klingons have whole fleets of Vor'Chas. Thus, the Sovereign is on a per-ship basis stronger than the Vor'Cha; yet a Sovereign-class ship fighting Klingons will most likely face a pair of Vor'Chas instead of just one.

Outside of "DecTrek" Personally I'd see the Vor'Cha as being able to project a devastating amount of power with its disruptors and being a very durable ship in combat, having especially a very high level of weapon redundancy. The ship's supposed to have 18 disruptors after all. Otherwise I'd see it as having only medium shields. I see the Vor'Cha as one giant space gun array (!)

[General Chang]

I would love to see the Decipher rules on Starship combat and strength.. Decipher materials for Star Trek are hard to find in Charleston, WV.

Now that you put it that way, Snake, I kinda agree that perhaps a single Sov versus a single Vor' Cha would be pretty devastating for the Vor'Cha. Again, different games have different representations for the ships too. Video Games like Bridge Commander represent the Vor'Cha as a formidable single combat starship. I do not know how well it performs in SFC3 or even in Dominion Wars.

You're right about the Vor'Cha basically being a big "space gun".
It's forward disruptor bank is supposedly a very powerful weapon.
Augmented with the 18 disruptors, of which I would assume some could fire in the forward arc..and it's photon torpedo launchers....that is some serious firepower to bear on a single target. Two Vor'Cha's on a Sovereign,....I'd pray for the Sov crew.

And of course, the Klingons rarely operate in less than elements of three ships. (Unless you're Commander Kruge, General Chang, or Chancelor Martok.) Considering that Klingons use cloaking devices.....a lot.....I would venture to say that the element of surprise and numbers would greatly favor the Klingons.

Overall though, I think I must concede that a Sovereign represented in canonized fashion would tear up a single Vor'Cha, but not after taking severe damage itself.

Respectfully,
General Chang (you know...the dead Klingon?) LOL!

[Capt. K. Vaughn]

The problem with simplistic combat systems is just that - they are simplistic and tend I find not to be very representative of what is seen on screen.

FASA's system certainly had kinks especially once TNG started. A friend and I rewrote the system and construction manual and we created a fairly balanced result that seemed to reflect what we saw on screen.

LUG then came out and won us over for its RPG system and character creation. The starship combat though was on the simple side and we found it was not to the level of representation that we desired so we stuck with our rework of FASA's materials but used LUG in all other respects.

Then Spacedock came out and we've used that ever since. Even with these stats though in a stand-up fight the Sovereign will reduce the Vor'cha to so much space dust. However, a properly employed cloak will go a long way toward evening up the odds.
That said, the odds are still in the Sovereign's favor but the Vor'cha could still give it a good run for its money.

I have not played enough with Starships to have an opinion beyond that it is more detailed than LUG's original combat system but still quite simplistic for the detail that we prefer. This is not a bash on the system or the people that prefer a cleaner streamlined system of starship combat just a comment on our own preferences. So please do not take it as such as that is not the intent. Besides others have already given a review based on that system.

Though I will say this regardless of the system, there are too many factors to say how something will turn out in play if the ships are on par and a decent player or GM is controlling the vessel.

Regards,
CKV.