JEM'HADAR SHROUDING in ALIENS??

[Calcoran]

I don't know about you, but I really liked it more as a species ability than as a tech advantage ... and from the series I was under the impression that is was more species specific than tech related ... ICBW ... but as a matter of fact in my campaign it certainly isn't going to be a tech advantage. Good thing I had already thought about the way to do it in Coda before Aliens came out .

Of course, the usual YMMV disclaimer applies .

[Lt Cmdr Matt]

Here is quick question, If Shrouding is not natural to the Jemmies, but was inherent only after some scientist genetically re-engineered them, wouldn't that still be a technical ability and technical advantage?

DISCLAIMER: This comes from a guy who has never seen 1 episode of DS9. (Can't wait for Season 1 to be here shortly )

[T'lara]

Originally posted by C5
There's an episode with a Jem'Hadar child who grows on board DS9, without ever approaching Jem'Hadar technology (though he was genetically fearing Odo), and who showed in the end of the episode that he could shroud.
Then again, maybe there was a piece of tech in the container where he was found that allowed him to shroud. However, I remember another episode (during the 6-episodes arc at the beginning of season 6) where Jem'Hadars, deprived of white, can't shroud anymore.

And no, I don't have Aliens so far, so I can't tell whether it's written in the book as a technology or a species ability

Bingo! That was the episode that I recall that shows there was no technology used. If there was would not have someone in Starfleet or the rest of the Alliance like the Romulans for example would figure out to harness this technology?
Also all the episodes expecially this episode mentioned not once has any doctor like Julian Basher ever notice this tech? Even a dead Jem'hader you could take out the tech in an autopsy.

In those episodes that the Jem'Hader where deprived of White. They had a hard time concentrating even fighting. However there was an episode of a Jem'Hader that did not need the White and was able to shroud. This was the Jem'Hader that kidnapped O'Brian and Basher to find a cure to the addiction of White for his unit. At the end of the episode, he Shrouded at the end to kill his unit before they went into bloodlust.

[Calcoran]

In my house rules, shrouding require mental concentration, which is improved through white. My explanation was that the Jem'Hadar who was freed from White had worked/trained on the concentration bit.

And I agree with you in that had the baby Jem'Hadar had a piece of tech buried inside his body to enable shrouding, it stands to reason Bashir would have detected it and commented on it. Come to think about it, there was some parallel made somewhere with the Tosks shrouding ability ... was it stated in the episode whether the ability was natural (or genetically engineered ... that's a bit the same thing since both races are almost complete genetic engineering constructs AFAIR) or whether it was a technological device?

[Karg]

Originally posted by Calcoran
In my house rules, shrouding require mental concentration, which is improved through white. My explanation was that the Jem'Hadar who was freed from White had worked/trained on the concentration bit.

The Episode "Hippocratic oath" Pointed out that the Jem's could shroud when withdrawn from the White

[Calcoran]

Originally posted by Karg
The Episode "Hippocratic oath" Pointed out that the Jem's could shroud when withdrawn from the White

Well, episode "Rocks and shoals" specifically stated the opposite ! Talk about consistency! Bet this temporal braga war from Enterprise had repercussions even on DS9 .

Mind you, maybe they were not deprived enough in "Hippocratic Oath" ... only those trying to break free from the white were, wouldn't have been a very good strategy to have those standing guard deprived too.

[Karg]

Originally posted by Calcoran
Well, episode "Rocks and shoals" specifically stated the opposite ! Talk about consistency! Bet this temporal braga war from Enterprise had repercussions even on DS9 .

Mind you, maybe they were not deprived enough in "Hippocratic Oath" ... only those trying to break free from the white were, wouldn't have been a very good strategy to have those standing guard deprived too.

D'oh

Sorry that was a slip of the fingers

I had meant to write Couldn't

[T'lara]

Originally posted by Calcoran
Well, episode "Rocks and shoals" specifically stated the opposite ! Talk about consistency! Bet this temporal braga war from Enterprise had repercussions even on DS9 .

Mind you, maybe they were not deprived enough in "Hippocratic Oath" ... only those trying to break free from the white were, wouldn't have been a very good strategy to have those standing guard deprived too.

And what about the Jem'hader soldier in Hippocratic Oath that broke his addicition of the White and was trying to get his unit to break the same addiction. He had not had White in his body for years and was able to Shroud.

[Capt Daniel Hunter]

That particular Jem'Hadar had never actually been dependent upon white, so he'd never actually had an additiction to break. As I recall, his body naturally produced white, or some sort of analogue of it. So I'm not sure he would count.

I'd guess that some Jem'Hadar are better able to withstand the debilitating effects of withdrawal than others. Which is why some can continue to shroud for much longer in those conditions. Of course, that's just my theory, YMMV.

[T'lara]

Originally posted by Capt Daniel Hunter
That particular Jem'Hadar had never actually been dependent upon white, so he'd never actually had an additiction to break. As I recall, his body naturally produced white, or some sort of analogue of it. So I'm not sure he would count.

I'd guess that some Jem'Hadar are better able to withstand the debilitating effects of withdrawal than others. Which is why some can continue to shroud for much longer in those conditions. Of course, that's just my theory, YMMV.

In that Episode he said he was on a planet lone survivor and went through the withdrawl alone. Basher did make note of the fact his body showed it made it's own. But he did have to break the addiction first.

[Capt Daniel Hunter]

Well it's been a while since I watched the episode, and I don't recall if Goran'Agar actually stated he had gone through withdrawal or not. Though since he didn't really understand what happened to him, I wouldn't take any assertion from him about going through withdrawal entirely at face value, since his perception of what happened to him was quite different from the reality. I'll have to check the episode. However, we do know that white withdrawal leads to psychotic behaviour and death, so I find it doubtful that he went through any true fullblown withdrawal. I do recall that Bashir discovered that Goran'Agar had probably always had that physiological abnormality, thus from a medical point of view, if Goran'Agar produces his own, then he couldn't really have gone through withdrawal, since he was never actually without the white. As to having broken the addiction, well I'm not sure that's the case. He may have had to acclimatise to reduced levels, so may have suffered some of the effects, but not the fullblown symptoms normal Jem'Hadar would.

Either way, Goran'Agar is kind of a special case.

[Capt Daniel Hunter]

Originally posted by C5
There's an episode with a Jem'Hadar child who grows on board DS9, without ever approaching Jem'Hadar technology (though he was genetically fearing Odo), and who showed in the end of the episode that he could shroud.

That episode is The Abandoned. And I seem to recall that Bashir had to produce white (or he might have gotten it from a storage compartment from the wreck, I'm not sure) for the Jem'Hadar kid. So thw white may or may not be necessary, IMHO.

I tend to agree that the ability to shroud is innate to the Jem'Hadar, either it's a natural ability, or acquired via genetic manipulation. As to losing the ability during white withdrawal, my guess is, the physiological effects of withdrawal interfere with at least some Jem'Hadar's ability to shroud. It may just be a side effect of withdrawal, as opposed to a symptom, if you get my drift.

[Calcoran]

Originally posted by Capt Daniel Hunter
{snip snip snip}As to losing the ability during white withdrawal, my guess is, the physiological effects of withdrawal interfere with at least some Jem'Hadar's ability to shroud. It may just be a side effect of withdrawal, as opposed to a symptom, if you get my drift.

Good point capt. Hunter.

[T'lara]

I think it does require a concentration or in this case a Willpower Roll of some sort for their natural abilities. The White is not needed for the Shrouding abiility but when you withdrawl as we have seen in a few episodes of Jem'hader not having White they become more feral and bloodlust. Withdrawing from a drug and one needed as bad as White, Willpower Rolls would be a difficulty.
This means a telepath like a Betazoid could with a Psionic roll distract a Jem'hader from concentrating and deShroud. Although we never saw in the series a Psionic Species using their powers it would be a guess that the Willpower could be effected that way.

So far it seems agreed the Shrouding is part of the design of the genetic code of the Jem'hader, but the need for rules on Willpower Rolls are needed and we I guess need to come up with some. Personally I run the Jem'Hader myself in my upcoming game so no Jemie players but I am sure some of you may allow Jemie players.

[Dr. Jonas Bashir]

This treatment of the Shrouding ability is as old as the LUG's Deep Space Nine core book. So, it seems it's an established opinion of the LUG/CODA team.