How would Starfleet deal with... "the tattletale dilemma"

[USS Kochanski]

Well, remember the starfleet in Insurrection. Also, didnt sp.8472 say they had already infiltrated? The militant attitude starfleet has gained could be their doing, as a way to harm the federations reputations.

[Profit]

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at?

[Antonsb214]

Well, touchy-feely or not, Starfleet would take exception to activities which endanger Starfleet personnel. Any Ferengi caught would probably be dealt with within the limits of Starfleet regs and Federation law. Of course, a CO who has lost friends in the war may not be so linient (sp.?) . Maybe even go on a renegade Ferengi hunting trip. and Sect. 31 may do something about it too or use it. All sorts of adventures could come from this situation. But the Feceration, if they found out about it, would probably try diplomacy first, then "encouraging" Ferengi ships to keep their distance, and then firing on them and boarding them.

[USS Kochanski]

What i was saying is: Starfleet isnt as touchy-feely as it was before. One possible reason is, it has been infiltrated by a species the borg call 8472.

[General Chang]

Hello, all,

It is also important to remember that Starfleet did start taking a somewhat more militaristic stance when the Borg were still a threat. That is why they created the "warship" defiant, and other vessels from the ASDB such as the Akira, Steamrunner, and Norway Classes. Not to mention, there is also the Promethius...with its multivector assault mode. Note: The capability is not referred to as multivector exploration mode...it is multivector assault mode.

Starfleet may end up getting back to actual exploration now that the Romulans, the last of the actual major Threat powers in the Alpha Quadrant, have started negotiations for a real peace.

However, this thread deals with treacherous renegade Ferengi. Starfleet has lost enough personnel, resources, and worlds in the Dominion War. IMHO, one would think that the Federation would
take stronger measures to insure its own security after the DW.
If that involves a "shoot first and ask questions later" approach, then Starfleet has every right to do so, given that the Federation has had major encounters with The Klingons, The Borg, and the Dominion Alliance (Dominion, Cardassians, and Breen). If the Federation does not adopt tougher policies to ensure its own security, so long as such policies do not threaten the life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness that its citizens enjoy, then it leaves itself open to yet another threat.

So, who's gonna miss a few renegade Ferengi if they should happen to accidentally run across a stray Photon Torpedo?

Again though, it is your game. If your players can come up with creative ways of dealing with the Ferengi, that does not involve firing a single shot, then hats off to them. Just remember that deep down inside, the Ferengi are cowards, and even the threat of violence directed against them is usually enough to cow them into submission. (Of course, there can be that one slightly misinterpretted order.)

FED CAPTAIN: Ferengi Marauder, this is Captain so-and-so of the Federation Starship Wunderbar. You are ordered to stand down your ship and prepare for boarding.

DAI-MON: This is DaiMon Such-and-such of the Ferengi Cruiser (language ininterpretable). What gives you the right to detain my ship?!!

FED CAPTAIN: We have detected that you have been transmitting fleet movements, and other vital Starfleet information to forces hostile to the Federation. This information is classified, and that makes you spies.

DAI-MON: You have no proof, hew-mon! Now let us go, or...

FED CAPTAIN: Tactical, if they should even flinch, fire a warning shot across her nose!

TAC OFFICER: Aye, sir! Quantum Torpedo standing by.

DAI-MON: The hew-mon is CRAZY! Get us out of here! Maximum Warp!

FED CAPTAIN: FIRE!

The Wunderbar fires a Quantum Torpedo at the escaping Marauder, scoring a direct hit, collapsing her hull, and detonating her warp core.

TAC OFFICER: Oops! (looks sheepishly around the bridge, and then back to the Captain.) I'm sorry, did you say "across her nose"? I thought you said "up her nose", sir.

FED CAPTAIN: (shrugs shoulders) Honest mistake. Didn't catch it myself until it was too late.

The Captain looks about the bridge again, seeing the crew is carrying out their duties as if nothing happened.

FED CAPTAIN: Ok, I'm gonna just go into my Ready Room now, and , ummm, catch up on some paperwork. .......ummm......yeah.
(Innocently whistles as he walks toward the Ready Room.) Umm...tac officer, you have the bridge.

TAC OFFICER: (restraining a devilish grin) Aye, sir.

The Fed Captain enters the ready room, and the Tac Officer casually walks toward the center seat. He slowly sits down, takes in the view, and leans forward, allowing his devilish grin to bear.

TAC OFFICER: Helm, let's go cornhole us some renegade Ferengi.


Irreverently,
General Chang

[Publius]

Originally posted by General Chang
However, this thread deals with treacherous renegade Ferengi. Starfleet has lost enough personnel, resources, and worlds in the Dominion War. IMHO, one would think that the Federation would take stronger measures to insure its own security after the DW.

If that involves a "shoot first and ask questions later" approach, then Starfleet has every right to do so, given that the Federation has had major encounters with The Klingons, The Borg, and the Dominion Alliance (Dominion, Cardassians, and Breen). If the Federation does not adopt tougher policies to ensure its own security, so long as such policies do not threaten the life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness that its citizens enjoy, then it leaves itself open to yet another threat.

So, who's gonna miss a few renegade Ferengi if they should happen to accidentally run across a stray Photon Torpedo?

So basically, you would be the Nazi U-Boat to the Ferengi's Greer?

I find it interesting that no one has commented on the bit of history about the Greer I posted earlier, as it does bear some relevance to the discussion and places some hard choices in the characters direction. After all, blowing them up because they are perceived to be an obstacle is kind of an easy way out isn't it, and there are the vaunted Federation Principles to deal with: Are there rules during warfare? When does the time come (if ever) to dispense with the principles of the Federation? Does loosing the war justify that? There is the seed of a great story in that concept alone, because principles which are not adhered to when inconvenient aren't principles at all are they; in that case they are merely affectations, and the Federation is made up of summertime diplomats and fair-weather pacifists mouthing empty words about their lofty ideals.

How about this: Other than blowing them out of space, is there any other solution? Disable the Ferengi engine/weapons, or perhaps simply her long range sensors etc. and move off. Or more drastically, hack into their transponder and change it to a compromised Federation frequency. Why does "They are traitors (to the Federation they don't belong to?) so blow them up" have to be the answer?

[Profit]

Thank you for saying that, Publius.

I too think there's great potential here, I just need to figure out how to resolve it.

I do suspect that Gen. Changs "gunboat" approach would be... less than satisfactory. What if they happen to blow up some innocent Ferengi?

We must also note two things: 1) There is no "renegade" Ferengi- they just have a different set of moral rules. 2) No actual crime is committed until the Ferengi sells the information, probably after it has left the vincinity of the Fed. ship! Which means that a Fed. captain can never "prove" anything there and then....

[Publius]

For resolution:

If the situation has not come up yet, but will in an upcoming adventure: I would definitely have someone mention the Greer incident, or have the players read about the Greer incident before they come to play for that session. The Captain, if a PC, should be notified by someone that this is a possible breach of Federation principles.

If the Situation has already happened and the Players fired on the Ferengi (assuming that fatalities occurred): A War Crimes trial is called by the Ferengi, or the neutral third party whose system the fight happened in (lets say First Federation space, since they seem to be much more technically advanced than the Fed). Perhaps, it is the Federation itself which has placed the PCs on trial. The players must defend their actions, but 'aiding' them will be "Ends justify means" types like Section 31, which would not have had a problem offing those Ferengi (and are very much behind the scenes in their support of course), or one of Admiral Leyton's old cronies who managed to escape the purge after Leyton's failed coup and is now at the head of the "make Starfleet more military" faction and makes the argument that it "had to be done".

[Capt. K. Vaughn]

If you really want to highlight the Greer, have an NPC be a descendant of one of the Greer's crew. Perhaps he is reading a PADD on that incident and the reason the PCs notice it, is that the NPC is known to dislike reading and is not known to do it on his down-time.

If your players are curious or paranoid, have the NPC mention enough details to pique that and they should take it the rest of the way in doing their own research as they try to figure out why said NPC is acting in such an "odd" fashion.

Regards,
CKV.

[General Chang]

LOL! Please, don't get me wrong. I fully agreee that my gunboat approach would be very very unsatisfying. The thing to remember is that regardless of the species representing the Federation (except maybe the Vulcans), basically everyone is human at heart...with human-like feelings and flaws. Suppose that one of the players had a close relative who was killed as a result of some unscrupulous Ferengi (I fully realize that "unscrupulous" is a very relative term for the Big Eared Galoots! ) selling some information to the Dominion. That particular officer would be under a lot of pressure to keep his/her personal feelings out of the matter, regardless of his/her rigorous professional training as a Starfleet Officer. The little skit I offered earlier was another parody of mine...I shoulda disclaimed that particular piece.

In truth, if I were a GM, regardless of my predisposition toward more action based scenarios, I would probably want my players to find a more creative means of resolving the scenario.

And the Greer approach would be cool too...if there were an attack conducted on a Ferengi vessel without cause...that could make for some seriously cool court-martial drama. The players would then be caught up in a consequential adventure to either defend their captain, or put him/her down the tubes for violating the very principles that have kept the Federation getting its arse kicked for years. (That last half of the sentence is offered sarcastically btw. )

Yes, I am very action oriented, but a little intrigue never hurt. Forces the players to think with their heads and not their ordnance.

Respectfully,
General Chang

[Inajira]

A typically inventive Starfleet solution to the problem would be to allow the Ferengi vessel(s) to shadow them, feigning ignorance of them while attempting to hack into the Ferengi's radio frequency. Then listen in on Ferengi-Dominion intelligence comms and adjust one's own fleet/ship movements accordingly. This could be done right from the start or saved for some big battle that events are building up to. Just when the Dominion are starting to depend on Ferengi 'intelligence' (never a good thing IMHO :-D), the Federation utilises their knowledge to launch a surprise attack completely contrary to what the Ferengi said they would do. Section 31 could be involved in securing the information and also ensuring that it is only used on the eve on the big battle, i.e. no 'narrow-minded' starship captains are to use such intel during small engagements/encounters, which would risk revealing that the Federation has tapped into the Ferengi-Dominion comms (risking the entire operation).

[Dan Gurden]

Originally posted by Inajira
Section 31 could be involved in securing the information and also ensuring that it is only used on the eve on the big battle, i.e. no 'narrow-minded' starship captains are to use such intel during small engagements/encounters, which would risk revealing that the Federation has tapped into the Ferengi-Dominion comms (risking the entire operation).

And there-in lies the most common mis-conception about Section 31. People seem to think that Section 31 work with Starfleet or the Federation. When in actuality they are far more like a rogue Federation element. Completely seperate fro both Starfleet and the Federation, they ensure that they are un-encumbered by further commitments and look only upon the bigger picture, and their manipulation and control over its outcome...

The sort of proposal you suggest is far more in line with the remit of Starfleet Intelligence, while Section 31's remit is to save the Federation in spite of itself, and at any cost.

The bottom line is. Section 31 are the bad guys. They say power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Section 31 have absolute power within the Federation. Cloaked ships, advanced tech, all the starship codes and specifications, agents within agents within agents, most of whom dont even know they are working for Section 31, some might have an inkling of whats going on, but rest assured that Section 31 only lets them see enough of the picture to come to a completely errant conclusion. Think J.Edgar Hoover of the FBI over James Bond of MI6. They are not portrayed as the uber-cool secret organisation, and 99% of the encounters will be controlled and manipulated by the handler, and many of them would actually be in opposition to the Starfleet.

At least thats the impression the 3 episodes and 4 books conveyed.

Your Milage May Vary, and if Starfleet Intelligence isn't good enough for you, go for your life...

[Kronok]

I have to disagree.

Section 31 would infiltrate the Ferengi (i.e. a threat) and destroy them at all costs. Yes, this is very Un-Federation-ish.

However…

Originally posted by Dan Gurden
And there-in lies the most common mis-conception about Section 31. People seem to think that Section 31 work with Starfleet or the Federation. When in actuality they are far more like a rogue Federation element. Completely seperate fro both Starfleet and the Federation, they ensure that they are un-encumbered by further commitments and look only upon the bigger picture, and their manipulation and control over its outcome...

The sort of proposal you suggest is far more in line with the remit of Starfleet Intelligence, while Section 31's remit is to save the Federation in spite of itself, and at any cost.

The bottom line is. Section 31 are the bad guys. …

Section 31 works within Starfleet 9 times out of 10. It’s that 1 time, when the Federation and it’s associates are…

UNWILLING TO GET THEIR HANDS DIRTY.

Section 31 takes care of that 1 time.

[Inajira]

I guess I see Section 31 more as a rogue branch of Starfleet, but don't see them as having massive amounts of resources (top of the line starships, cloaking devices etc.). To me, they aren't as ruthless as the intelligence services of the Romulans and Cardassians, but are willing to make extreme decisions for the 'greater good', like 'some lives lost now, more lives saved later' that blind hero-types disapprove of. But then again I've only read one book on S31, so YMMV...