Wonderous Majic??

[Elendur]

I just took a look at the new Fell beasts and Wonderous Majic book and noticed that THERE ISN'T A SINGLE NEW SPELL!!!
What is the deal, here???

[oops1]

There is a Wizards book coming out soon. The Fell Beasts only covers items (I don't remember if it says that in the title). There is a whole other thread that discussed the book. Sorry, I'm not sure how to link to it.

[Ineti]

Originally posted by Elendur
I just took a look at the new Fell beasts and Wonderous Majic book and noticed that THERE ISN'T A SINGLE NEW SPELL!!!
What is the deal, here???

It didn't promise any new spells. Back of the book mentions creatures and artifacts, but not spells.

Maybe it could have been titled "Fell Beasts and Wondrous Artifacts," I don't know.

[vgunn]

Well as Tolkien put himself, magic in Middle-Earth doesn't always involve spells.

" Anyway, a difference in the use of `magic' in this story is that it is not to be come by by `lore' or spells; but is in an inherent power not possessed by Men as such. "
[Letter #155]

[Phantom]

Originally posted by oops1
There is a Wizards book coming out soon. The Fell Beasts only covers items (I don't remember if it says that in the title). There is a whole other thread that discussed the book. Sorry, I'm not sure how to link to it.

It doesn't do that very well either, IMO. Once again the items that were included, that I saw anyway, were pieces of great power that already belonged to someone major to the original series. Now, I'm not expecting D&D type stuff, but a few NEW items would be nice. I know the very base rules for creating items for the game exist, I have done so in the past, but having a different persepctive is useful. This is the salient point that worries me, if Dec can only use what is in the books and the movies won't the information they can use run out?

This was my only complaint, the rest of the book was fairly well done.

[Jason Durall]

Two comments:

First off, I think the original solicitation for FB&WM had spells in it, if I remember correctly. It certainly had "magical places" in it, as I pointed out when the exact contents were known. As a matter of fact, it still says so:

Details the creatures, both fair and foul, and the magical places and items found throughout the trilogy. 96-page, hardcover, full-color.

Secondly, though many of the items described are fairly specific to certain people, quite a few are not so limited in use, such as:

Armour of the Elder Days
Dragon-helm of Belegost
Lesser Rings
Rings of Command
Winter Ward
Heir's Ring
The Witch-king's Seal
Black Arrows
Blandorthin's Spears
Dunadan Blades
Morgul-blades
Dwarf-instruments
Dwarf-toys
Miruvor
Orc-liquor
Orc-medicine
Water of Mirkwood
White Mountain Staves

In fact, the only items specifally from someone else's inventory are:

Aiglos (said to be lost, whereabouts unknown)
Grond
Herugrim
Glamdring
Guthwine
Orcrist
Witch-king's Mace
Arkenstone
Fire of Orthanc
Horn of Gondor
Horn of Rohan
Mirror of Galadriel
Red Arrow

So, about 18 to 13 of "generic" to "specific" - and I could think of uses for about half of the items in the latter list in a campaign I'd run (not all at once, mind you).

[Phantom]

Originally posted by Jason Durall

Secondly, though many of the items described are fairly specific to certain people, quite a few are not so limited in use, such as:

Armour of the Elder Days
Dragon-helm of Belegost
Lesser Rings
Rings of Command
Winter Ward
Heir's Ring
The Witch-king's Seal
Black Arrows
Blandorthin's Spears
Dunadan Blades
Morgul-blades
Dwarf-instruments
Dwarf-toys
Miruvor
Orc-liquor
Orc-medicine
Water of Mirkwood
White Mountain Staves

Ok, I guess I've not been clear and precise in trying to get my idea across. To describe, when I run a game I start the characters out at the lowest point (level 1 for D&D, 0 Advances LOTRS or just out of char. gen for any other.) That being said, most of the items you list above, agreed, are available. But, would you not agree that they are a trifle "over powered" for a beginning game (exception the Dundan Blades)? What I would like to see are items that cover the whole spectrum of player levels. I mean you wouldn't give a first level D&D figther a +5 Keen Vorpal Sword in the first game would you?

As example an item I made for my LotRs game. Note: design wasn't finished.

Helm of Eladur
-adds +4 to inspire tests
-belonged to Eladur, one of Isildur's Great Captains. He fought at the Battle of the Last Alliance and the Battle of Gladden Fields (where Isildur was ambushed.) Died trying to save his lord.
-Eladur's body was taken from the field by Gondorian forces and laid to rest, with his equipment, in a Tomb in the North Barrows, a place the Gondorians thought would be far enough away to be safe. But, when the Witch-King of Angmar sent his wraiths to inhabit the Barrow Downs, he also sent one to the Tomb of Eladur to see that no one would retrieve the Helm, and use it against his dark master.

Not flashy, but a useful item none the less. This is the type of item I would've liked to have seen in the book.

BTW, what use is Orc medicine and liqour anyway?

[Jason Durall]

Originally posted by Phantom
Ok, I guess I've not been clear and precise in trying to get my idea across. To describe, when I run a game I start the characters out at the lowest point (level 1 for D&D, 0 Advances LOTRS or just out of char. gen for any other.) That being said, most of the items you list above, agreed, are available. But, would you not agree that they are a trifle "over powered" for a beginning game (exception the Dundan Blades)?

BTW, what use is Orc medicine and liqour anyway?

I see your point, but you really might want to read the book before making judgements like that. Out of the items I listed, any of the following would be reasonable for starting-level characters:

Blandorthin's Spears
Dunadan Blades
Dwarf-instruments
Dwarf-toys
Miruvor
Orc-liquor
Orc-medicine
Water of Mirkwood
White Mountain Staves

I could picture any characters with friendship of the Elves of Lorien or Rivendell beginning with one or more of these items.

On the other hand, you seem to be forgetting a principle of Tolkien's, that often items are not assigned to the "appropriate" level person to bear them. Frodo, a first-level character if there ever was one, somehow ends up with the best armor in the world, a very nice magic short-sword, a phial of the light of Earendil's star, a nice elf-cloak, a rucksack ful of lembas... and the One Ring.

Orc Medicine is the nasty stuff Ugluk smears on Merry's wound when they were captured by the Uruk-hai, and Orc Liquor is the fierce alcohol they were forced to drink which gave them strength to keep up with the Uruks.

[Phantom]

Originally posted by Jason Durall
1) I see your point, but you really might want to read the book before making judgements like that. Out of the items I listed, any of the following would be reasonable for starting-level characters:

Blandorthin's Spears
Dunadan Blades
Dwarf-instruments
Dwarf-toys
Miruvor
Orc-liquor
Orc-medicine
Water of Mirkwood
White Mountain Staves

I could picture any characters with friendship of the Elves of Lorien or Rivendell beginning with one or more of these items.

2) On the other hand, you seem to be forgetting a principle of Tolkien's, that often items are not assigned to the "appropriate" level person to bear them. Frodo, a first-level character if there ever was one, somehow ends up with the best armor in the world, a very nice magic short-sword, a phial of the light of Earendil's star, a nice elf-cloak, a rucksack ful of lembas... and the One Ring.

1) Agreed. I will look closer at the items next time.

2) True, Frodo was a 0 Advance character to begin with. However, he didn't start the game with all you list.
- The Ring was an inheritance-easily a starting Edge (with the GMs permission.)
- I would think he would have gained one or two advances by the time he had received Sting and the Mithril shirt, again from his uncle.
-and more then likely another one or two advances by the time he recieved Galadriel's gifts.

So, by the time he collected all you list he was more then likely a 3-4 advances character. And again, let's face it not all characters are going to have the same opportunities Frodo had, Eleven Friendship is not given lightly. Only certain peoples are allowed into the Elven Regions, and as Celeborn stated in the movie FOTR "this is the first time we have outfitted outsiders as such." (paraphrase.)

[Jason Durall]

Originally posted by Phantom
2) True, Frodo was a 0 Advance character to begin with. However, he didn't start the game with all you list.
- The Ring was an inheritance-easily a starting Edge (with the GMs permission.)
- I would think he would have gained one or two advances by the time he had received Sting and the Mithril shirt, again from his uncle.
-and more then likely another one or two advances by the time he recieved Galadriel's gifts.

So, by the time he collected all you list he was more then likely a 3-4 advances character.

All true, or at least agreeable (no idea how many advancements Tolkien would have given Frodo). However, the point was that he was basically a low-level guy who was practically staggering under the weight of the magical gifts he'd been given (not found, not earned either).

And again, let's face it not all characters are going to have the same opportunities Frodo had, Eleven Friendship is not given lightly.

I'm not so sure about that, as Gildor is the one who pronounces Frodo Elf-friend, and it is only after hanging out with him for a few hours, and Frodo quoting some Elvish. Of course, it's just a difference in interpretation - as I doubt Tolkien had any systematized notion in his mind as to how "Elf-friend" might be quantified.

[Phantom]

Originally posted by Jason Durall
1) All true, or at least agreeable (no idea how many advancements Tolkien would have given Frodo). However, the point was that he was basically a low-level guy who was practically staggering under the weight of the magical gifts he'd been given (not found, not earned either).



2) I'm not so sure about that, as Gildor is the one who pronounces Frodo Elf-friend, and it is only after hanging out with him for a few hours, and Frodo quoting some Elvish. Of course, it's just a difference in interpretation - as I doubt Tolkien had any systematized notion in his mind as to how "Elf-friend" might be quantified.

1) True, I'll agree with you there. But, I think you will agree that most, if FOTR was played as a game, of what he received was as reward for good RPing

2) Can't remember the particular part of the book of which you speak, but wasn't the company he kept also taken into account by the Elf who made the proclaimation. Sort of "a friend of Gandalf and Aragorn? Then you are a friend to us as well." More Friend by association. Also, the fact that he had agreed to the quest proved his worth. Not all Lotrs games will be that dire as the destruction of the one ring, and probably won't show on the elves radar at all. Even if there is an Elf in the party.

All I'm trying to say is there is no equivalent to the +1 (+2) magic item in D&D (just using this as an example here). I think that most PCs in a LotRs game will be lucky to end a campaign with more then a Masterwork weapon. At least I don't include earth shattering items into my games any way. I ran an L5R game for some years and the two players each had one magic sword and one player also had a magic coin (which he never used) that was it. There is nothing between the Dunadan Blades and the more higher powered items.

[Jason Durall]

Originally posted by Phantom
2) Can't remember the particular part of the book of which you speak, but wasn't the company he kept also taken into account by the Elf who made the proclaimation. Sort of "a friend of Gandalf and Aragorn? Then you are a friend to us as well." More Friend by association. Also, the fact that he had agreed to the quest proved his worth.

It was when Frodo, Sam, and Merry ran into the Elves in the Shire on their way to Crickhollow. They run into Gildor's Wandering Company on the road, and the Elf is impressed enough with Frodo that he names him Elf-friend within minutes of their meeting (there is a little of "any friend of Bilbo's is a friend of mine...", but they haven't met Strider yet, and Gandalf isn't mentioned until much later).

[Phantom]

Originally posted by Jason Durall
It was when Frodo, Sam, and Merry ran into the Elves in the Shire on their way to Crickhollow. They run into Gildor's Wandering Company on the road, and the Elf is impressed enough with Frodo that he names him Elf-friend within minutes of their meeting (there is a little of "any friend of Bilbo's is a friend of mine...", but they haven't met Strider yet, and Gandalf isn't mentioned until much later).

Hmmm, ok agreed in this case it does seem rather easy. As you said Tolkien didn't have any rules in mind when he did that. Mechanically speaking even the game says you should have a good story as to why you took "Elf Friend" as an edge.

I guess this is one of those areas we aren't going to see eye-to-eye. But, hey that is what makes these things exciting.

[Elendur]

Mastercraft items should not be forgotten in all this. Mastercraft items are more comman than legendary or majic items and usualy give a +1 to damage and to hit due to their superior construction.

[simon_hibbs]

Originally posted by Phantom
What I would like to see are items that cover the whole spectrum of player levels. I mean you wouldn't give a first level D&D figther a +5 Keen Vorpal Sword in the first game would you?

Why not? after all, Frodo gets The One Ring right at the start of the 'game'. Characters should get resources and rewards based on the needs of the campaign story, rather than any artificial concept of the current 'power level', IMHO.

Having said that, I agree that a borader variety of items would have been preferable. I just disagree with some of your reasons why.

Nice example item, by the way.

BTW, what use is Orc medicine and liqour anyway?

Very useful for Orcs. It might help orc enemies recover from wounds and harass the adventurers more than they would otherwise. Anything that helps protagonise the bad guys, rather than just treating them as bland sword-fodder, is agood thing, IMHO. Tolkien's orcs are talking, thinking beings with their own personalities and goals. Giving them usefull resources to work with can make them interesting characters, as well as opponents.


Simon Hibbs