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Thread: [CODA] Modfied BOP for the Romulans

  1. #16
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    They had cloaking devices, however their cloaks were of a very basic design as the Enterprise was able to repolarise their sensor array (or some other such technobabble) and see all of the cloaked mines. While the ships have Nacelles they are not seen warping.

    While I remember to say, in TOS the impulse engines AND warp engines were contained within the Nacelles, it was only later with the movie era and TNG onwards that the impulse engines were seperated. So there is no reason that the nacelle like objects seen on the original Romulan BOP were not just impulse engines.
    Ta Muchly

  2. #17
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    Originally posted by Tobian
    While I remember to say, in TOS the impulse engines AND warp engines were contained within the Nacelles, it was only later with the movie era and TNG onwards that the impulse engines were seperated. So there is no reason that the nacelle like objects seen on the original Romulan BOP were not just impulse engines.
    I agree with your idea on the possible design behind the Romulan ship, but wasn't an "impulse deck" (as in a location for the impulse drive) established in TOS?

  3. #18
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    Yeah it probably was - but then the 'holodeck' isn't an actual 'deck' is it ;-)

    Seriously yes, there are engineering rooms which contain relays, storage, fusion generators, antimatter storage, Deuterium Storage, Various warp reactors - which span multiple decks and sections of most ships. Some ships will have a good percentage of their internal volume. In the example of the Enterprise NCC 1701 - the Main engineering section probably had a suite of rooms dedicated to just the impulse systems, but the actual engines were in the Nacelles. Much like main engineering was not located in the enterprise D's nacelles either.
    Ta Muchly

  4. #19
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    That's not accurate, Tobian. Watch TMP again, and you clearly see two exhaust vents (heck, the camera focuses on the vents) that propel the Enterprise forward as she heads out on impulse from spacedock.

    There are also impulse vents visible on the TOS Enterprise, on the aft saucer section.

    I'm not sure where you got your information, but every tech book I've seen shows the impulse engines on the aft saucer section, not within the warp nacelles.
    Davy Jones

    "Frightened? My dear, you are looking at a man who has laughed in the face of death, sneered at doom, and chuckled at catastrophe! I was petrified."
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  5. #20
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    Ok I stand corrected. I've double checked and yes the original constitution had Impulse in the same location as the Movie era one. I am just sure I've seen a technical schematic somewhere of the original series Nacelles that showed Impulse engines in there too. I can't be bothered to look so point conceeded
    Ta Muchly

  6. #21
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    Originally posted by Phantom
    Then why did it's Commander not Warp accross the NZ to safety instead of the liesurely pace of impulse that was used in the ep? Even Romulan Commanders are not that cocky to play cat and mouse with a Connie.

    Also, in the ep "Minefield" I don't recall any of the Romulan ships travelling at warp.
    simple, in TOS, Fusion Reactor Core wasnt sufficent to energized all in same time. While remaining cloak and plasma torpedoe in statis mode, required a lot of energies that the Fusion was capable of, but without the ability to go to warp for example. Thats why after with the D7 Ships and its Matter/antimatter Core,could they be capable of that. And Today with the Singularity Core,they have infinite power....

    In Minefield Enterprise series, The Early BOP musnt have a plasma Torpedoe Launcher but instead a Photon one. Giving them much free power consumption.

    cuz its said in Balance of Terror, the Plasma torp is new by a romulan Officer aboard The Romulan Ship, but not before.

    And the Romulan BOP in balance of terror have Impulse Vents too, They warp Nacelle are just that.
    Romulans believe their way of life is best; their culture, they feel is superior to all others, and they seek to impose their culture on the rest of the galaxy, at the point of a disruptor if need be.


  7. #22
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    Ok, why turn, disengage the cloak and attack with the plasma torps? It would have been much more Romulan for him to de cloak and make a run for the NZ...If he had a warp core that is. Since he didn't I think that gives credence to the warp bottle idea. He hadn't had time to re fuel and thus had to do it "the hard way."

  8. #23
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    To be honest the logical outcome for that answer would be because if the romulans had warp it was of a type which was extremelly limited - a Bottle system is such a limited system. If you look at all the spacefaring powers - the Breen, the Romulans, The Ferengi, The Federation, The Klingons, The Cardassians - what do their warp drives have in common - actually extremelly little!

    The Federation uses a pair of nacelles; The Klingons use a monolobed field generator on some of it's craft; The Cardassians used concealed Nacelles at the front of their ships; The Ferengi use a unique design with the Nacelles curved arround the back of their ship; The Breen appear to be able to overcome the shape of their vessels for Warp travel; The Romulans use a quantum Singularity power source. - So when you look at all of these - almost all of them use a different subset of warp physics to travel about. You could argue that the Klingon BOP was one of the older ships that used a different method before they began to adopt 'improved' federation style linear warp drives, but that simply isn't true because the BOP has been seen well into the 24th century and was able to match the speeds of the Enterprise D (most likelly with improvements, but it doesn't have any extra Warp Nacelles)...

    So what's so hard to accept about the Romulans using a different form of Warp Drive? A Magnetic Bottle *IS* Warp drive. It would just be of such a radically different nature to the type seen in the Federation it could be explained away as *not* being warp drive - that fits all the basic facts we know. To simply say they had fusion (impulse) power, does not mean they would not register as being warp capable!

    Also as a sidenote - the Quantum singularity power core does not give 'infinite' power. The D'Deridex was shown not to be able to match the full speed of the enterprise. Now while you could argue that it had so much mass to carry allong with it, but then if it had infinite power ..... It also has to use a large ammount of it's power to contain the quantum singularity, which would go up as you attempted to feed it more particles to increase the virtual particle pair output of the core, so you would reach a point where it wouldn't yeild much more as to be worth it.
    Ta Muchly

  9. #24
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    Originally posted by Phantom
    Ok, why turn, disengage the cloak and attack with the plasma torps? It would have been much more Romulan for him to de cloak and make a run for the NZ...If he had a warp core that is. Since he didn't I think that gives credence to the warp bottle idea. He hadn't had time to re fuel and thus had to do it "the hard way."
    he did once, and the Enterprise engaged its back emergency warp, and the plasma hit it, but with less destructive power since it depleted its energy over travelling...

    but fusion is not like Matter/Antimatter, its must exausted is fuel more rapidly, and after the first try, he didnt have enough so he go for the Neutral Zone, on impulse since he was cloak and having mot enough power to go to warp, you must remember that he destroyed 4 or 5 Outpost before engaging the Enterprise, with all that he must have reduced considerably its power source...
    Romulans believe their way of life is best; their culture, they feel is superior to all others, and they seek to impose their culture on the rest of the galaxy, at the point of a disruptor if need be.


  10. #25
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    Originally posted by Tobian
    To be honest the logical outcome for that answer would be because if the romulans had warp it was of a type which was extremelly limited - a Bottle system is such a limited system. If you look at all the spacefaring powers - the Breen, the Romulans, The Ferengi, The Federation, The Klingons, The Cardassians - what do their warp drives have in common - actually extremelly little!

    The Federation uses a pair of nacelles; The Klingons use a monolobed field generator on some of it's craft; The Cardassians used concealed Nacelles at the front of their ships; The Ferengi use a unique design with the Nacelles curved arround the back of their ship; The Breen appear to be able to overcome the shape of their vessels for Warp travel; The Romulans use a quantum Singularity power source. - So when you look at all of these - almost all of them use a different subset of warp physics to travel about. You could argue that the Klingon BOP was one of the older ships that used a different method before they began to adopt 'improved' federation style linear warp drives, but that simply isn't true because the BOP has been seen well into the 24th century and was able to match the speeds of the Enterprise D (most likelly with improvements, but it doesn't have any extra Warp Nacelles)...

    So what's so hard to accept about the Romulans using a different form of Warp Drive? A Magnetic Bottle *IS* Warp drive. It would just be of such a radically different nature to the type seen in the Federation it could be explained away as *not* being warp drive - that fits all the basic facts we know. To simply say they had fusion (impulse) power, does not mean they would not register as being warp capable!

    Also as a sidenote - the Quantum singularity power core does not give 'infinite' power. The D'Deridex was shown not to be able to match the full speed of the enterprise. Now while you could argue that it had so much mass to carry allong with it, but then if it had infinite power ..... It also has to use a large ammount of it's power to contain the quantum singularity, which would go up as you attempted to feed it more particles to increase the virtual particle pair output of the core, so you would reach a point where it wouldn't yeild much more as to be worth it.

    it does, on the contrary, i think more that the warp nacelles were not as advanced as those on Galaxy Class, thats why even having a Better Core, wasnt able to match the full speed of the Enterprise. Remeber in a TNG episode(TIN MAN) that a D'deridex managed to follow the full speed of the Enterprise, but resulting with Warp Nacelles being damaged beyong repairs. But it did it! so even if the romulans wants to boost the energy on the warp nacelles , you'll reach a limit where you cant have more, because of the romulans warp nacelles conception, Hopefully in Nemesis they catch up in matching the speed of the Enterprise-E
    Romulans believe their way of life is best; their culture, they feel is superior to all others, and they seek to impose their culture on the rest of the galaxy, at the point of a disruptor if need be.


  11. #26
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    Well, let's just suppose, that the Romulan ship's warp core is only charged up and running when it is about to actually go to warp, so if it is cruising at impulse the warp core wouldn't show up on scans and appear to be a non-warp capable ship. So when it was cruising the neutral zone and taking out the outposts, it was running on a finite supply of energy (the fusion reactors use fuel and isn't nearly as powerful as a matter/antimatter reactor). They could have turned back when the Enterprise came on the seen, but their orders were to test Federation defenses, so they engaged the first Federation starship they encountered. In the ensuing battle, it's energy supply was reduced to the point to where they could no longer maintain a warp field (let's suppose that it cannot warp and cloak at the same time) it was forced to limp back to the neutral zone under impulse power. There was probably a re-supply ship waiting on their side of the neutral zone. If successful, it would have re-fueled the Bird of Prey, and they both would have returned home to tell of the effectiveness of the new plasma torpedo and cloak. But instead the Romulan commander activated a self-destruct, so the Romulans would assume that their new technology wasn't advanced enough and that more R&D was needed. Of course a tech exchange with the Klingons wouldn't hurt. The Starfleet Battles history has them exchange the cloaking tech for some old D-5 and D-6 cruisers, second line ships by Klingon standards. The Klingons probably thought they got a great deal. But the Romulans reverse engineered the Klingon ships and were soon building ships of their own design. This leads to the Hawk, War Eagle, Raptor, and Condor classes. The War Eagle was the Warbird (Bird of Prey) with "conventional" warp drive, this actually allowed it to carry more weapons (the newer techology was more compact than the old). But this is just another theory to explain what was seen on TV.

    And here's my version of it, managed to cram in the equipment to make it a contender.

    Romulan Bird-of-Prey


    Origin: Romulan Star Empire
    Class and Type: Bird-of-Prey cruiser
    Commissioning Date: 2245
    Lead Engineer: Anton Spletstoser

    Hull Data:
    Structure: 20
    Size/Decks: 4/5
    Length: 124.5m / Height: 22.5m / Beam: 237.5m
    Complement: 205

    Propulsion Data
    Warp System: RWC, Warp 3/4/5 (B)
    Impulse System: RIB-1, .5c (AA)

    Operational Data
    Atmosphere Capable: No
    Cargo Units: 40
    Operations System: Class 3 (D)
    Life Support: Class 3 (D)
    Sensor Systems: Class 2 +2/+1/0/0/0 (C)
    Separation System: No
    Shuttlebays: 1 aft
    Shuttlecraft: 4 size worth
    Tractor Beams: 1 aft
    Transporters: 2 personnel, 2 Cargo, 2 Emergency

    Tactical Data
    Disrupters: RPFD-2 (X2, C)
    Penetration: 3/3/2/0/0
    PlasmaTorpedo Launchers: RPT-3 (C)
    Plasma Penetration: 5/4/3/2/1
    Deflector Shield: PFF-2a
    Protection/Threshold: 13/2

    Miscellaneous Data
    Maneuver Modifiers: +1 C, +1 H, +1 T
    Traits: Outdated (+2 TN to Command tests)

    Background:
    This is the Romulan Star Empire’s primary starship of the 2200’s. One was updated with new technology and sent across the Neutral Zone to test Federation defenses in 2266. It managed to destroy several outposts and even engaged a Constitution-class starship, which had responded to the last outpost’s distress signal. In the ensuing battle, both ships were damaged, but the Bird-of-Prey was disabled. The commander of the vessel then set the ship’s self-destruct device and destroyed the prototype less it fall into Federation hands. This represents the Bird-of-Prey that has been refit with warp drive and other modern systems. But the design still shows the signs of its age, the ship’s command systems are outdated.
    Last edited by Antonsb214; 07-30-2003 at 10:02 AM.
    "Retreat?! Hell, we just got here!", annonymous American Marine, WWI

    "Gravity is a harsh mistress....", The Tick

  12. #27
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    Very good design Anton. I notice you have no atmosphere capability on it. I seem to remember a sketch in a FASA book that showed a Romulan BOP land on a planetary surface. Not official I realize, but it does give it a bit of an advantage.

  13. #28
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    I was thinking specifically of Tin Man for my argument about the D'Deridex - my point being if it had infinite power it could cloak fully and travel at high warp. In the dialogue they said it must have been pulling so much power for something else to not be able to sufficiently cloak. I.e. it did not have infinite power. Also yes it matched the enterprise's speed while irrevocably destroying it's ability to fly at warp - means it is NOT as fast as the enterprise - period!

    With regards to the Enteprise E - it did appear that the newer (unclassed) Valdore and it's sister ship, allong with the Reman ship, were able to mach the much faster Sovereign (faster than the galaxy) speed to catch it up, and probably explains why the rest of the fleet never did - I.e. probably the D'Deridex (which we saw they had in large numbers in the Dominion War) which are quite a bit slower, unless they have revised their warp drives. The problem with such a large ship is they are hard to update, and I imagine you can't really 'refit' a Quantum Singularity power core!

    With regards to your Ship Anton - I quite like it as it fits into the nice trek blip model of "why didn't you just build more?" - and nicelly explains the speed anomalies of that one ship without going against the Romulans not having warp drive

    One model of Warp Travel that you can go on with the Romulans (in a twist of the Magnetic Bottle idea) had to build up a large volume of Plasma inside a magnetic bottle type device - which they used to travel at warp - but only for limited periods and they had to spend a while charging it up, couldn't cloak and fire weapons while at warp either (or while charging it). Perhaps this is where the Romulan plasma weapon in and of it's self came from - they used this bottle as the weapon ! It also fits with the science because Fusion produces just so much less energy than antimatter you couldn't really use it to travel more than Warp 1.01 unless you stored the plasma for a while before hand. Sound better ?
    Ta Muchly

  14. #29
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    It's not much, it would have a hard time against a Constitution one-on-one, but two or more ambushing a starship could probably do some real damage. I'm glad I could make a design that everyone was happy with. I'm too much of an old SFB player to think that the only weapon it would have would be the plasma torpedo. The SFB version also had armor plate, a leftover from the Earth-Romulan war days, evidently in SFB's timeline, noone had shields then either. So, if I took another design flaw for the warp drive, you could increase the structure points or give it ablative armor. But as it stands, I believe it is a good design to give the Bird-of-Prey a little more time "on screen" as it were as a viable threat to Federation ships. The War Eagle, I believe would be a good candidate for a size 5 version of the Warbird/Bird-of-Prey. It would be solid competition for a Constitution-class. Maybe I'll go ahead and design it.
    "Retreat?! Hell, we just got here!", annonymous American Marine, WWI

    "Gravity is a harsh mistress....", The Tick

  15. #30
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    Originally posted by Tobian
    I was thinking specifically of Tin Man for my argument about the D'Deridex - my point being if it had infinite power it could cloak fully and travel at high warp. In the dialogue they said it must have been pulling so much power for something else to not be able to sufficiently cloak. I.e. it did not have infinite power. Also yes it matched the enterprise's speed while irrevocably destroying it's ability to fly at warp - means it is NOT as fast as the enterprise - period


    ah, but you forget that the D'deridex warp signature may be detected at speeds above warp 6. (Startrek.com) so in order to intercept or just to follow the Enterprise, would explain the lack of effectiveness in the cloak... the Infinite power have no conection here with the ability to engage both(cloak and warp)

    With regards to the Enteprise E - it did appear that the newer (unclassed) Valdore and it's sister ship, allong with the Reman ship, were able to mach the much faster Sovereign (faster than the galaxy) speed to catch it up, and probably explains why the rest of the fleet never did - I.e. probably the D'Deridex (which we saw they had in large numbers in the Dominion War) which are quite a bit slower, unless they have revised their warp drives. The problem with such a large ship is they are hard to update, and I imagine you can't really 'refit' a Quantum Singularity power core!
    and why so? are you an engineer? what do you know about that? have you some proof? In Startrek.com, on the nemesis section, its well said that the existing warbird(d'deridex) had some improvement, like Shield and weapons, and unprecedented agility...


    With regards to your Ship Anton - I quite like it as it fits into the nice trek blip model of "why didn't you just build more?" - and nicelly explains the speed anomalies of that one ship without going against the Romulans not having warp drive

    One model of Warp Travel that you can go on with the Romulans (in a twist of the Magnetic Bottle idea) had to build up a large volume of Plasma inside a magnetic bottle type device - which they used to travel at warp - but only for limited periods and they had to spend a while charging it up, couldn't cloak and fire weapons while at warp either (or while charging it). Perhaps this is where the Romulan plasma weapon in and of it's self came from - they used this bottle as the weapon ! It also fits with the science because Fusion produces just so much less energy than antimatter you couldn't really use it to travel more than Warp 1.01 unless you stored the plasma for a while before hand. Sound better ?
    all that is beautiful, but it is canon?
    Romulans believe their way of life is best; their culture, they feel is superior to all others, and they seek to impose their culture on the rest of the galaxy, at the point of a disruptor if need be.


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