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Thread: [CODA] Modfied BOP for the Romulans

  1. #31
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    Originally posted by Antonsb214
    It's not much, it would have a hard time against a Constitution one-on-one, but two or more ambushing a starship could probably do some real damage. I'm glad I could make a design that everyone was happy with. I'm too much of an old SFB player to think that the only weapon it would have would be the plasma torpedo. The SFB version also had armor plate, a leftover from the Earth-Romulan war days, evidently in SFB's timeline, noone had shields then either. So, if I took another design flaw for the warp drive, you could increase the structure points or give it ablative armor. But as it stands, I believe it is a good design to give the Bird-of-Prey a little more time "on screen" as it were as a viable threat to Federation ships. The War Eagle, I believe would be a good candidate for a size 5 version of the Warbird/Bird-of-Prey. It would be solid competition for a Constitution-class. Maybe I'll go ahead and design it.
    Again all those ships will be great only if it really existed! but as canon fact determine the true of the false... these will remains only speculations.
    Romulans believe their way of life is best; their culture, they feel is superior to all others, and they seek to impose their culture on the rest of the galaxy, at the point of a disruptor if need be.


  2. #32
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    Yes sorry I forgot. The Romulans have an infinite power source, which allows them to travel at warp ten, while firing all it's Plasma torpedoes and Disruptor banks while at cloak. Oh and while I think about it if they have access to infinite power they must be able to replicate whole starships. So with this fleet of infinite power vessels they must have surelly already invaded the Federation, The Klingons, The Cardassians, The Tholians, The Gorn, oh heck even the Dominion and the Borg and conquored the whole universe.... Hang on, none of that happened I hear you say? Oh well it mustn't be true then :P

    But then i'm no scientist so clearly I must be wrong. My bad.

    Tomalak: There is no real engineering involved, but I take exception to the use of the word infinite - it's INFINITE, as in more power than the output of the whole universe, because the Universe is not infinite! DUH. I don't need to be an engineer to know they don't have that!

    You also cannot flip flop between choosing Canon when it suits your views. I am sorry mate but if you want to quote CANON then it is CANON that the Romulans don't have warp drive in the TOS PERIOD. We're just trying to find ways round that for game purposes., which fits all the available facts, while not going against them.

    The only proof I need to know the D'Deridex fleet which was CANONICALLY sent to stop the Remans was because they were NOT there in the battle. I will also point out that Startrek.com is also not Canon. The ONLY Canon is the films and the TV series.
    Ta Muchly

  3. #33
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    Hey, all we know about the Bird-of-Prey from "canon" is that it's a target for Captain Kirk!

    What we saw on-screen:
    1. It didn't have warp drive or at least they didn't use it, which is the same thing for dramatic purposes.
    2. It only fired the plasma weapon, so that must be the only weapon on board.
    3. It didn't even have a viewscreen, just those little viewers, I guess they were really on a budget that week...
    4. It had atomic weapons, which when detonated a hundred meters from the Enterprise, did minimal damage.
    5. And it only had a crew of about five.
    6. It had a self-destruct system.
    7. It had a cloaking device.

    And from my degree in science, it would be tough to refit something with a singularity drive, unless you know how to temporarily shut down a black hole.
    "Retreat?! Hell, we just got here!", annonymous American Marine, WWI

    "Gravity is a harsh mistress....", The Tick

  4. #34
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    In the Romulan Boxed set they had a rather nice (non canon) technology guide for the Romulans. It suggested that the Quantum singularity power core was built as a large block, which could be removed and or fired as a last ditch weapon (Read: Nasty!). To be honest they would have to have a contingiency plan! I suspect this unit would most likelly be several times larger than a Federation warp core simply because it has to also contain a very powerful containment field generator, with back-ups. The federation Warp cores do have containment fields, but they mostly use electromagnetic fields, which can be sustained (for the time it takes to eject and clear) with simple bateries.

    Of course it's again Non Canon, but the Romulan device is most likelly a micro Quantum singularity with a diamiter of no more than a few milimeters - size is irrelevant when density is infinite!) However while the exposure of the Singularity would creat a massive release of energy and a powerful spacetime gradient / Gravity shear, quantum fluctuations in the singularity would mean it would evaporate (and this is science!) as all Black holes do eventually. However the timeframe might be seconds to centuries!
    Ta Muchly

  5. #35
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    Damn it Tobian, I'm a Trekkie, not a quantum engineer!!! Say it to me in plain English!!!
    "Retreat?! Hell, we just got here!", annonymous American Marine, WWI

    "Gravity is a harsh mistress....", The Tick

  6. #36
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    Yeah but then i'd have to understand it myself hehe!

    From the section of the 'Universe in a nutshell" By Stephen hawking I remember (hehe - it had pictures!) is that a Quantum singularity will draw in matter, so long as it is within it's gravitation sphere of influence. Normally this matter can never escape, so theoretically the diamiter of the QS would expand indefintelly given an indefinite ammount of matter.

    However this is not the case. Quantum theory dictates that there is no such thing as infinite or nothing, there is somehwere in between no matter how minute or how massive (This also leads us to Zero point energy, but that's another story!). What happens is that microscopic quantum fluctuations occur on the edge of the black hole, because it's surface cannot be an absolute (according to quantum physics). This results in the production of twin virtual particles, with oposite spin, which repel agains each other. One of the particles is pushed back into the quantum singularity and the other is repelled away, despite the fact that under the laws of conventional physics no mass or eneregy can escape. This effectivelly means that the quantum singularity has lost mass.

    With a quantum singularity formed from a massive blue type stellar mass (several thousand times the size of our sun) - the ammount of mass it would have to shed before it's mass passed back into the conventional laws of physics would probably mean it might not ever evaporate before the end of the universe (or several billion years, whichever comes first ! )

    However, with the use of technology it is likelly that the Romulans have artificially generated a microscopic quantum singularity. I would have to say it would have to be a tiny quantum singularity as a) the ship is not the size of a colapsed blue super giant - yes they do still have a diamiter, they are not infinitelly small, just infinitelly dense) and b) I do not recall a spiraling quantum rip in space time occuring during any of the battles we have seen where Warbirds have been destroyed in the Dominion War (which there were several) In that case it either means that the collapse of the containment field resulted in destroying the ship and a massive explosion, so it was too small to have much of a solar system wide effect, or the Cores are designed to maintain structral integrity for as long as they could and have thursters which move them outside of a solar system., before dropping. After all the Romulans would not want a collapsing ship to destroy their own fleet in close combat!!!

    From the observation of the Romulan Warbird which was caught in a subspace fracture (allong with the Enterprise in the episode I forget the name of) the Romulans core exploded, because that is what the implication was in the dialogue, and I didn't notice the Enterprise get sucked into a spiraling vortex of death. So by that implication the Quantum singularity is more than large enough to easily destroy a ship and heavily damage a neighbouring one, but not large enough to not burn it's self out with quantum fluctuations in a relativelly short time.

    NB: From a scientific perspective a Quantum singularity is not capable of producing infinite energy, because it is a monster which devours as much as it gives. Infinite is also a misnomer in a scientific sense, since it is simply a finite which is beyond our ability to measure.
    Ta Muchly

  7. #37
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    Originally posted by Tobian
    Yes sorry I forgot. The Romulans have an infinite power source, which allows them to travel at warp ten, while firing all it's Plasma torpedoes and Disruptor banks while at cloak. Oh and while I think about it if they have access to infinite power they must be able to replicate whole starships. So with this fleet of infinite power vessels they must have surelly already invaded the Federation, The Klingons, The Cardassians, The Tholians, The Gorn, oh heck even the Dominion and the Borg and conquored the whole universe.... Hang on, none of that happened I hear you say? Oh well it mustn't be true then :P


    so you're mad...

    But then i'm no scientist so clearly I must be wrong. My bad.

    Tomalak: There is no real engineering involved, but I take exception to the use of the word infinite - it's INFINITE, as in more power than the output of the whole universe, because the Universe is not infinite! DUH. I don't need to be an engineer to know they don't have that!
    what do you know about the universe as to be infinite or not

    You also cannot flip flop between choosing Canon when it suits your views. I am sorry mate but if you want to quote CANON then it is CANON that the Romulans don't have warp drive in the TOS PERIOD. We're just trying to find ways round that for game purposes., which fits all the available facts, while not going against them.
    I'm not flip floping, i use only canon fact nothing more.


    The only proof I need to know the D'Deridex fleet which was CANONICALLY sent to stop the Remans was because they were NOT there in the battle. I will also point out that Startrek.com is also not Canon. The ONLY Canon is the films and the TV series.
    its is!
    Romulans believe their way of life is best; their culture, they feel is superior to all others, and they seek to impose their culture on the rest of the galaxy, at the point of a disruptor if need be.


  8. #38
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    OK....

    Well, just in case we might have forgotten, this thread is about the Bird-of-Prey from TOS, and the right-up in the Starships book.
    I am really finding all of this talk about the D'Deridex oh so interesting, but that can go into a thread all of it's own.

    So we can agree on a few things....
    1. Canon is ONLY what is seen on TV or the movie screen.
    2. Since this is science fiction, we can make believe anything can power a Warbird (except little green faeries, that's right out), this includes the Bird-of-Prey/Warbird's fusion plasma or the D'Deridex's quantum singularity.


    ok... that's a couple of things... close enough

    If you wish you can consider what is published in the LUG or Decipher books as canon, I think it is, but anyway....

    oh and 3. The TOS BOP had no warp drive (officially)

    hey, that is a few... good.

    Hey it's all good....
    "Retreat?! Hell, we just got here!", annonymous American Marine, WWI

    "Gravity is a harsh mistress....", The Tick

  9. #39
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    Well I agree with you Anton. I would also say that while Decipher (and LUG before them) hold a liscence from paramount the information can be considered semi Canon. It certainly is from my point of view. Generally the information in there is well researched and based on evidence we've seen on the TV series, which is good enough for me. (abosultelly no gratuitous sucking up there at all! ) However the only True Canon is the TV series, full of contradictions as it is. If people want to make non canon Warp Driven TOS era Romulan ships there is nothing stopping them.
    Ta Muchly

  10. #40
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    Originally posted by Antonsb214
    OK....

    Well, just in case we might have forgotten, this thread is about the Bird-of-Prey from TOS, and the right-up in the Starships book.
    I am really finding all of this talk about the D'Deridex oh so interesting, but that can go into a thread all of it's own.

    So we can agree on a few things....
    1. Canon is ONLY what is seen on TV or the movie screen.


    but Official Magazine and Official Web Site aren't canon?


    2. Since this is science fiction, we can make believe anything can power a Warbird (except little green faeries, that's right out), this includes the Bird-of-Prey/Warbird's fusion plasma or the D'Deridex's quantum singularity.


    ok... that's a couple of things... close enough

    If you wish you can consider what is published in the LUG or Decipher books as canon, I think it is, but anyway....
    i personally ask Steve Long for that and he gave me like answer no.

    oh and 3. The TOS BOP had no warp drive (officially)
    it had never been mention clearly as official.

    In "Star Trek: Insurrection", Dougherty said the following: "On Earth, petroleum once turned petty thugs into world leaders, warp drive helped to form a bunch of Romulan thugs into an empire. We can handle the Son'a, I'm not worried about them." Picard replied: "Somebody probably said the same thing about the Romulans a century ago."

    In the incident in TOS: "The Deadly Years", Romulan ships without warp drive would not have been capable of intercepting the Enterprise in the first place, and even the incompetent Commodore Stocker would have had no problem to outrun them.

    While subspace radio may exist without warp drive, it is unlikely that the Romulans did have this communication technology, but no warp drive. Earth seems to have developed subspace radio much later than warp drive

    The ultimate argument: The Romulans in Enterprise quite obviously do have warp drive. The engines even look similar to the Klingon nacelles of the time, just as they will look similar to Federation design 100 years later.


    hey, that is a few... good.

    Hey it's all good....
    overall,yes
    Romulans believe their way of life is best; their culture, they feel is superior to all others, and they seek to impose their culture on the rest of the galaxy, at the point of a disruptor if need be.


  11. #41
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    Originally posted by Tobian
    Well I agree with you Anton. I would also say that while Decipher (and LUG before them) hold a liscence from paramount the information can be considered semi Canon. It certainly is from my point of view. Generally the information in there is well researched and based on evidence we've seen on the TV series, which is good enough for me. (abosultelly no gratuitous sucking up there at all! ) However the only True Canon is the TV series, full of contradictions as it is. If people want to make non canon Warp Driven TOS era Romulan ships there is nothing stopping them.

    I would tend to believe that too, in some way, but sharing information on that topic with trekkers its not easy as they always proclaming Canon Proof,... its not that i dont want to listen your theories about that Magnetic Bottle, to me its seem a possibility with some strong believe, but other theories are as good as yours! like the one at Ex Atris Scientia about Warp Drive and Romulan History.
    Romulans believe their way of life is best; their culture, they feel is superior to all others, and they seek to impose their culture on the rest of the galaxy, at the point of a disruptor if need be.


  12. #42
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    StarTrek.com, so far as I've seen it, contains canon material, only because it only has in it what is supported by the series.

    This is what is says about the Bird of Prey: Romulan warship of the 23rd century used to test Federation fighting tactics and technology during the 2266 Romulan incursion. It could not use shields or weapons whenever cloaked. Its underside revealed its namesake: a huge, wingswept predatory bird design.

    And the Warbird: The largest and most powerful of Romulan spacecraft, first detected in late 2364 by the Federation in the first Romulan meeting in 53 years. Nearly twice the length overall of a Galaxy-class Federation starship, this vessel used an artificial quantum singularity to power its warp-drive system. Decks are lettered and sections numbered; some quarters are on C deck; Launch Bay 3 is on Deck E, Section 25. It carries at least three shuttlecraft areas, known as "Launching Bays." Even through a cloak, warp signature may be detected at speeds above warp 6.

    Romulan warbirds have also been spotted in the following instances:

    — An unspecified Romulan warbird bent on destroying Deep Space Nine and the wormhole as a catastrophic Dominion defense was detected while cloaked thanks to the temporal waves emitted by its quantum singularity power source, O'Brien's radiation poisoning and his time-shifting which results.
    — Tain is headquartered on another one that was the flagship of the joint covert Obsidian Order/Tal Shiar attack on the Founders homeworld in 2371; it found Constable Odo and Garak's Runabout near Unefra III.
    — A Romulan warbird was used as an adversary in Tuvok's Maquis boot camp battle simulation.


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    So, thats all that the official site says about them, which is what was seen in the series.

    Ex Astris is a great site, I use it, among others, as a resouce all the time, but a big chunk, even their very cool Romulan War bits are non-canon because we didn't see it on-screen.

    Un-like Star Wars, in which pretty much everything printed (book, comics, WEG RPG) is considered canon. For Star Trek, just what is seen ON-SCREEN is canon.

    So, yes... websites and the official site are not "canon" in that they don't create new canon material, they only show what is already seen on-screen and therefore considered canon.

    But that's all besides the point really, this thread is about TOS BOP and how some of us aren't exactly thrilled with the write-up for it in the Starships book.

    My ship design isn't an attempt to threaten the fabric of the universe, just trying to slip it into the canon facts and make it fit, kinda like a round peg for a square hole. In case nobody figured it out, my ship isn't canon.

    So.... alright then.... back to Star Trekkin' (acting like Bruce Cambell from "Evil Dead")
    "Retreat?! Hell, we just got here!", annonymous American Marine, WWI

    "Gravity is a harsh mistress....", The Tick

  13. #43
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    Actually I think that the same is true for Starwars, it's just the films which are true canon.

    At the end of the day this is a thread dedicated to a forum about LUG and CODA Trek - With regards to Coda: In The aliens book it clearly states the Romulans did not have warp drive; Their ship does not have warp drive (for the TOS era) in the starship books. So according to Decipher, for the purposes of their game ONLY, the Romulans do not have warp drive in the TOS era. In Lug, the Romulans were also similarly described. That's what it says in the game rule books. If anyone decides to change that for their game they can. If anyone decides that the Romulans have quantum singularity powered quantum slipstream drives capable of crossing the galaxy they can too. No one is stopping you!

    I'm sure everyones bored to death by this argument by now so yes, lets move on!
    Ta Muchly

  14. #44
    with all this talk of the TV show and the movies being canon..then how do you explain the Enterprise episode "Minefield" where the Romulans from what i heard has warp capablilities? Now i haven't seen that episode but if TV shows are canon then i don't know what is.

  15. #45
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    The Romulan ship in Minefield does NOT have Warp drive, or to be specifically accurate, it does not travel at warp in that episode. However, annoyingly (following the trend in Enterprise) it does look more advanced than the TOS ship!
    Ta Muchly

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