A question about the Terminator films.

[General Chang]

Ok.,..here's a question I pose for theory...one which I will ask, but simply watch for the answers.

WARNING====minor spoiler.

In Terminator 3, a pair of fireman could not lift the T-800 (Arnie) from the rubble he fell upon. "Jeez, this guy must weigh a ton!"

If that is so, then how is it that Matt (Rick Rossovich) (Sarah Connor's roommate's boyfriend) was actually able to tackle Arnie's T-800 in the original film?

A technical question.

I await the speculation.

Respectfully,
General Chang

[CorpBoy]

Though it has been a number of years since I last saw it, I don't think he tackled him at all. I seem to recall him leaping at the terminator, but I didn't see him actually tackle him.

Now, I DID see him get throw backward, and possibly into a nightstand lamp. But I never got the impression that he ever had the upper hand in the fight.

[Dan Gurden]

Other than being a fairly minor continuity nit-pick, this actually has a very easy answer. Or several of them;

1 - (Technical). To date bipedal robots have been a bit of a 'holy grail', and very rare. Apparently using all those muscles, keeping balance and enabling motion that we all perform without a concious thought or effort, is remarkably difficult for a Robot to perform. (example, the SFX guy Stan Winston is currently among the worlds leading experts on Robotics, mostly because of the Terminator films, and some of the cutting edge robotics is used as SFX during the 3 movies).

Now take the technology forward about 20 years and upgrade the design program. So we can expact a robot/machine with the ability to mimic a humanoid robot... But perhaps if its Gyroscopic stabilisers can be taken advantage of allowing a standing robot to be tackled down if taken by surprise...

2 - (Biological). Have not seen the film yet (no opportunity over here for a bit). However the fact that they are picking him up implies unconciousness. Add the fact that when unconcious humans can be significant 'dead weights'... Something not encountered with a concious human. Perhaps the Terminator is programmed to mimic human bhaviour too well, and is only a dead weight when deactivated or dead (a continuity hole is if Arnie moved while being moved about. A deactivated machine/terminator should be in a stiffened state fairly similar to rigor mortis)...

3 - (Plot Driven). Who said that Ginger boyfriend wasnt injured while tackling the Terminator. If my memory is correct the character was beaten to death over the following few seconds, and did not have an opportunity to comment on how much the Terminator weighed whilst tackling it...

[Siroth]

As far as I can tell there are two other explanations, one easy and simple and one fairly complex:

1. The Terminator in the first movie wasn't a T-800 unit. Not sure, but I do believe that this unit and the similar unit in the sequel were both 'mere' T-100 units. If my assumption is correct (and it *is* and assumption - I'm by no means certain that I'm correct), then it would seem that the T-800 units are an 'upgrade' of the original T-100 units.

2. The facts and speculations about the 'old' terminators in the first two movies no longer apply because the timeline was altered when they managed to stop Judgment Day in the second movie. Therefore the future that the subsequent terminators come from is a new or alternate future. As we learn in the new film (without spoiling anything), the future was indeed changed or at least postponed due to the events of the second movie, and so technology would likely have advanced further by the time the terminator units came into production.

(Damn, I *hate* changes to the timeline - this is starting to sound like a bad episode of VOY or ENT... oops, I'm still typing!)

[CorpBoy]

Just where does everyone get the T-800 reference? Not having seen T1 in quite a while I am assuming that it's in there. I remember Reese talking about the 600 series having rubber skin, but I just can't remember any scene that specifically mentions an 800 series model.

Also, doesn't Arnie (in T2) respond to John's question about what he is with something like "Cyberdyne Systems model 101"?

[Caretaker]

I've been reading up online about the Terminator series (I don't have my copies of the first two films onhand right now), but... there may have been a mention of the unit and model numbers during one of the scenes where we see things from the Terminator's perspective (the "Termina-vision", if you will). Also, doesn't Reese mention the model of this version after telling Sara about the 600 series?

[AngryTree]

Originally posted by General Chang
In Terminator 3, a pair of fireman could not lift the T-800 (Arnie) from the rubble he fell upon. "Jeez, this guy must weigh a ton!"

I saw the movie Weds. night, and IIRC, only one of the firefighters was trying to lift Ahnold. The other one was just standing there, when they came to move him, and when he reactivated.

YMMV, of course.

[General Chang]

Hello, Caretaker,

Actually, he only mentioned the 600's. But in most of the official movie magazine of Terminator 2: Judgment day , and the novelization, Arnie was designated a T-800.

The line from the orignal Terminator.

REESE: The 600 series had rubber skin. We spotted them easy. But these are new. They look human. Sweat, bad breath, everything.

Angry Tree, good eye. I forgot it was only one fireman who attempted to lift Arnie up in T-3. d'oH!



Respectfully,
General Chang

[Siroth]

Originally posted by General Chang
Actually, he only mentioned the 600's. But in most of the official movie magazine of Terminator 2: Judgment day , and the novelization, Arnie was designated a T-800.

The line from the orignal Terminator.

REESE: The 600 series had rubber skin. We spotted them easy. But these are new. They look human. Sweat, bad breath, everything.

Now, I'm really confused because I watched over my tapes of T1 and T2. While the above quote is correct, there are a few more than add to the confusion. such as:

T1 (just a few minutes before the above quote):

REESE: "Not a man - a machine. A Terminator. Cyberdyne Systems, model one-zero-one".



T2 (just after Arnold's Terminator meets John Connor):

JOHN: "Don't take this the wrong way, but you're a Terminator, right?"

TERMINATOR: "Yes. Cyberdyne Systems, model one-O-one".



T3 (John talks to the Termintor while fleeing in the van):

JOHN: "Don't you remember me?"

TERMINATOR: "It was a different model one-O-one".



Now, note the designations are same or not depending on the emphasis you assign to it. In T1 Reese says "one-zero-one", whereas the Termintor (Arnold) says "one-O-one", with "O" as the letter O, in both T2 and T3.


Now I wonder where the T-800 references come from. Does 'model 101' just mean the Termintor series no matter what sort (and so that T-1000 and T-X are also model 101) or what?

[General Chang]

Hello, Siroth,

I think regarding the difference between Reese saying "One-zero-one" and the Terminator saying "One-oh-one" it comes down to a matter of protocol and training.

For Reese, he was trained by what could be a shadow of the former United States Army (or Marines). In the U.S. Military, (of which I am ex-Army) you are trained almost from the get go to refer to the numeral 0 as a zero. The purpose: Clear comminications. Especially when communicating over the radio.
When spelling something out, or giving a number string by individual characters, the zeroes would be zeroes, and the letter "O" would be phonetically designated as "Oscar". A simpler way of putting this is in a slight bit of dogma that was drilled into us Basic Trainees early on:

"There are no oh's! There are only zeroes and oscars!"

So, when Reese designated the Terminator for Sarah in the original film, he used the zero out of a force of habit during communications over radio. I say this from experience because even when I am using number or character strings over the phone, or even in person, I still refer to the number 0 as zero.

As for the Terminator, I think oh is just a convienience...an economy of speech since Terminators are not exactly designed to be conversationalists. They have awesome vocabulary, but when it comes to numbers, it's economy in speech. Short, simple, direct.

When you mention the line "It was a different One oh one." That does raise an eyebrow. Again, let's fall back to the first two films.

On the new "Ultimate Edition" of T2: Judgment Day, Arnie is referred to as a T-800 on the back of the box. I have a feeling that this is something that has been around since the original film.
Again, falling back on Reese's line: "The 600 series had rubber skin. We spotted them easy."

Now, looking at the original movie, remember the future dream that Sarah has while Kyle is explaining the future to her? It is a different Terminator that assaults the hideout of Kyle's unit. The Terminator is no doubt a T-800 with the organic skin tissue...because the humans were about to let it in, then the dogs started barking. (That Terminator was played by Schwarzennegger's good friend Franco Columbu) for all you trivia lovers out there. The T-800 was never referred to by that designation in the original film, but I think it is safe to assume that the more advanced, human looking type was a T-800.

There is a notion that all T-800's look the same. That is probably true if all the Terminators that look like Arnie are designated CSM-101. Arnie's model is CSM-101. Franco Columbu's model could very well be CSM-102, or CSM-100.

Look at modern tech. A Television line made by a single company could be comprised of a single type...say the new HDTV's. Then, there are different models of that type. A 57 inch model, a 32 inch model, a 60 inch model. The only thing individualizing them at that point is the "serial number".

So, lemme see if I can break this down.

Terminators:
Type 600 --- none seen in the movies, except perhaps their endoskeletal forms. At that, there may not be much visual difference between a 600 and an 800 endoskeleton.

Type 800 --- Arnie model (possibly modeled after ex-Secret Service agent Dieter von Rossbach in a new Terminator novelization). Cyberdyne Systems Model 101. The three Terminators, although the same model, could have different serial numbers.

Type 800 --- Franco model. The one in Sarah's dream. Her dream could have been precognitive, lending credence to the notion that not all T-800's look the same.

Type 1000 --- New type. At this point, I am not sure that an actual model number would be necessary, since the T-1000 could assume any personage it wanted to, (after a typically lethal sampling of the original subject of course)

Type X --- New type. Again, not sure if a model number was necessary. Like the T-1000 predecessor, she could assume any personage she wished.

Wow...we could all probably strain our brains for hours on this one.

I hope I provided you with some insight, Siroth.

Take care,

Respectfully,
General Chang

[CorpBoy]

Chang,

I'd have to agree 100% on your assessment of the series/model numbers. Though I'd never thought of it in that way, it fits perfectly with the existing backstory. The T-800's are the most human-looking termies (that don't use the liquid metal), with the individual model numbers (i.e. CSM-101) corresponding to specific body styles.

Nice.

[General Chang]

Danke....I definitely fried a few neurosubprocessors on that one.

Respectfully, and with a slight case of headace,
General Chang

[Siroth]

Thanks for the explanation, Chang. It makes a lot of sense to me, so I'll conveniently accept it, not least since it's better than any reason I could think of

Good point the "zero" vs. "oh" thing. I actually think it's obvious they mean exactly the same, but I felt like mentioning it anyway. Maybe I'm just paranoid, but I infrequently find that if something like this is brought it, some smartass will just have to point it out, so that's why I did it myself. In the end it doesn't matter, at least not to me. Thanks for the 'army force of habit' explanation, though, since I actually wasn't aware of that.

One thing, though. I seem to recall that the dream you refer to was Reese's dream... Well, maybe I just remember it wrong. Again, not important.

Hmmm, the bit about the one T-800 model that looks like arnold (the 101 model) makes me wonder who the machines fashioned it after. Wouldn't it be cool if we saw Arnold as both a T-800 and a real human in the now inevitable T4? Could be fun if done right, I think.

Anyway, thanks.

[General Chang]

Hello, Siroth,

I'm not sure how canonized the novels are in the Terminator universe, but there is a new T-2 novel out--can't remember the subtitile, but we learn in this novel who the T-800 was modeled after.

Ex-secret service agent Dieter Von Rossbach, who apparently has some dealings with John Connor. I've not read the novel, but I like its premise.

But, yes, hopefully there will be a T-4 that sheds some light on this matter, since it seems that as a general rule with any multimedia entertainment form that usually the filmed materials are considered canonized.

Oh, and thanks for the kind words. The whole "zero" vs. "one" thing made the most sense to me simply because I am also ex-Army...so I applied personal experience to the first movie.

I'm glad I could also help clear up the whole T-series/Model conundrum. Or at least, contribute to the research that was conducted by many people on this forum.

Respectfully,
General Chang

[Phantom]

See, this is the thing that confuses the heck out of me. Where do they come up with so many "Arnie" T-800s? Look at the Terminator that busted up the Rebel base in the first movie, it didn't look like Arnie. And yet it had to be a T-800 as the dogs were the ones who picked it out, it fooled all the human guards.