The Nazgul

[Phantom]

Flipped through the FB&WIs again today, good book gotta get it one of these days. Anyway, I was wondering why under the Nazgul concentration was made on the two Numenorean Kings and yet ther was no mention of Khamul? According to one of the resources I have Khamul, an Easterling king, sometimes called The Black Easterling or Shadow of the East, and second only to the Witch-King in rank. He was the leader of the Nazgul who sent to Dol Guldur. Why no mention of him?

Now, I didn't go deeply into the new description of the Nazgul, but as the new ones were listed as BNs it just did soud right. If I have miised something then let me know.

[ben hur]

I'll betcha it has something to do with the copyright... just what source does Khamûl come from exactly? I don't doubt he's real... for one thing you are very trustworthy, and for another the Encyclopedia of Arda says it's a real name too.

If it's in the Lord of the Rings (even the appendix) then I think they can mention his name... whereas, if he's not, then I don't think they can without special permission.

Anyone correct me if I'm wrong, and I'd really appreciate knowing where Khamûl comes from, I want to read more about him ("Some new chronicle ideas draw near... I can feel it").

[Phantom]

Originally posted by ben hur
... for one thing you are very trustworthy...

Why thank you.

The source I was using was "A Guide to Tolkien" by David Day, Chancellor Press.

You are probably right about the copyright thing.

[Ineti]

Khamul's not listed in the index for ROTK, and while that isn't necessarily here nor there, it suggests that the name doesn't appear in LOTR anywhere. If that's the case, Decipher probably can't get away with it, unless they managed to sneak it in like they did with Tharni in the core book.

[ben hur]

Originally posted by Phantom
Why thank you.

The source I was using was "A Guide to Tolkien" by David Day, Chancellor Press.

You are probably right about the copyright thing.

No problem; one good turn deserves another.

Thanks, I'll have to check out that guide sometime. Right now I'm testing to see how far the library will go in getting books... they said they couldn't get the Fellowship of the Ring Sourcebook because it had no reviews on Amazon, but the Star Wars Core Rulebook had like a "4 and a half out of 5" rating and many reviews, and I suggested that to them, so I'm hopeful. If this goes through than I'm going to ask them for many-many-many more books.

By the way, guys; do you think the Gothmog mentioned as the Liuetenant of Minas Morgul in the Return of the King (a different Gothmog than the Balrog in the Silmarillion) is a Nazgul or a Mouth of Sauron type? I'm thinking he's more like Mouth of Sauron. It's an interesting subject to discuss.

[Phantom]

I'm thinking he probably is a "Black Lieutenant" type character. I would think The Enemy would either concentrate The Nine only as a hit squad (as he did in the beginning of the story) or as individual commanders. They would be too valuable (more then one) to waste in the case of the destruction of the unit they commanded.

[Helegond]

If I'm not totally wrong, he's a Dark Liutenant, and to be more specific, a half-troll.

Don't ask me how, please...

Darn, I don't remember where I did read that.

Cheers,

Helegond

[ben hur]

Half-troll? What the heck...

Oh, wait, you didn't want me to ask you.

No, that could certainly be his race... except that his Troll-side might make him a bit too dense for command. I prefer the Mouth-of-Sauron-type-view, but to each his own.

[GavynnAlexander]

The half troll idea comes from an old MERP supplement. I have it somewhere. As far as I know, Tolkien never specifies who or what Gothmog is, only that command of the Dark Army fell to him after the Witch King's death. At first I would think that Gothmog was another Nazgul, but I would think that it would be strange that Tolkien would call a Nazgul by name like that, which he never did elsewhere, or atleast say something, or atleast identify him as a Nazgul. The Witch King never gets a name, why should be second in command get one?

That would lead me to think that he was another "Mouth of Sauron" type, or could be one of the elite Uruk-hai captains. Tolkien just never lets us know.

Oh, and I agree with the other poster who thought that the Nine were two valuable to allow to lead units in person. Sure, they are used as "hit men" when no one else can be trusted with the task, but I think of them as being the overall commander type. I think they stay behind the scene and manipulate things before they get down and dirty. That is just my opinion though.

[Phantom]

Actually the second most powerful Nazgul does have a name-Khamul. According to the "Guide to Tolkien."

[Meneltin]

Wasn't Gothmog the Olog-hai Governor of Minas Morgul??

[eolruin]

Originally posted by Meneltin
Wasn't Gothmog the Olog-hai Governor of Minas Morgul??

Nope, Gothmog was the lord of the balrogs in the Quenta Silmarilion. He slayed Feanor before Angband on command of his master Morgoth and has been slain by Ecthelion (who died also) at the battle for Gondolin.

[Meneltin]

Yes, that ánd the Olog-hoi Governor of Minas Morgul :-)
I am not sure about the Olog-hoi part, could be something of Merp, but he was the lieutenant of Morgul and vice-captain of the Witchking

[eolruin]

I just remembered him from his deeds in the Silmarilion, and my Tolkien encyclopedia just lists the balrog - but the encyclopedia of arda lists them both:

* Gothmog The Balrog

* Gothmog The Lieutenant

Also the encyclopedia is a great source for tolkienish people

Best regards,

Eol

[ben hur]

I love the Encyclopedia as well! It's so helpful that I can just quickly search for something on obscure people.

Especially the dates, I'm rather bad with dates, so knowing exactly what year is ever so helpful.