A counter-quote

[Ezri's Toy]

The following quote has bugged me for sometime and I merely make this post to counter it with a differing opinion. I have no intention to debate anything or anyone here on these boards.

"War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

John Stuart Mill

John Stuart Mill was an upper-class parlimentarian in the very stratified Victorian Britain and was never a soldier. I always find it curious that politicians support wars, or even the concept of wars, in which they themselves will never fight.

Thus, I offer this counter-quote

"Better the pride that resides
In a citizen of the world
Than the pride that divides
When a colorful rag is unfurled"

-RUSH, "Territories" Lyrics by Peart

[Snake_Plissken]

That Rush citation is insulting, that's what I call it. Pinkos.

[C5]

For what's worth, I don't find the Rush citation any more or less insulting than the Stuart Mill one, unless something escaped me (no offense meant to anyone).

Don't pay attention, I'm just increasing my post count while this thread is still open

[Dan Stack]

I'm not a moderator on these forums so this is just my opionion which can be taken for what it's worth.

Given the ban on political threads, I think it's awfully difficult to post a "counter-quote" without it becoming a debate.

What I think would have a better response would have been adapting the quote into a sig.

-Dan, Grizzled Veteran of the Political ThreadWars

[Phantom]

I have to say I agree...with the war/ politician thing. Politicians start the wars and the soldiers are the first asked to join the party, and the last asked to leave. It is easy to start a fight when you know you won't be the one doing the bleeding.

[qerlin]

Originally posted by Snake_Plissken
Pinkos.

That's a bit extreme.

But Peart vs. Mill...I'm thinking Mill has the weight of scholarship behind him. Mill was also not exactly a drum-beating jingo, either...

Sorry the quote bugs you Ezri, but as a soldier, I agree with the statement. There's a point where morality becomes cowardice.

[Lancer]

While qerlin's political POV is usually as far from my own as the Andromeda galaxy there is at least some part of the JSM quote I can agree with:

A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature

The rest of the statement I am not so thrilled about, but having nothing that is so dear to you that you would be willing to fight for it is, IMHO at least, a sorry state of being.

[First of Two]

And MY sig is even truer.

Given the state of much of the rest of the world, I'd say that being a "citizen of the world" would be a step DOWN, for most of us.

But just for fun, more quotes:

"The fact that slaughter [battle] is a horrifying spectacle must make us take war more seriously, but [it does] not provide an excuse for gradually blunting our swords in the name of humanity. Sooner or later someone will come along with a sharp sword and hack off our arms."
- Carl von Clausewitz

"The aggressor is always peace-loving; he would prefer to take over our country unopposed."
- Carl von Clausewitz


"Beware lest in your anxiety to avoid war you obtain a master."
- Demosthenes

"The justest dispositions possible in ourselves, will not secure us against it [war]. It would be necessary that all other nations were just also. Justice indeed, on our part, will save us from those wars which would have been produced by a contrary disposition. But how can we prevent those produced by the wrongs of other nations? By putting ourselves in a condition to punish them. Weakness provokes insult and injury, while a condition to punish often prevents them."
- Thomas Jefferson

"War is evil, but it is often the lesser evil."
- George Orwell

"If we desire to secure peace, one of the most powerful instruments of our rising prosperity, it must be known that we are at all times ready for war."
- George Washington

"He who did well in war just earns the right to begin doing well
in peace."
- Robert Browning

"In peace, as a wise man, he should make suitable preparation
for war."
- Horace

[Joe Dizzy]

Originally posted by Lancer

The rest of the statement I am not so thrilled about, but having nothing that is so dear to you that you would be willing to fight for it is, IMHO at least, a sorry state of being.

There's a difference between having something that's worth fighting for, and something that's worth killing/dying for.

There are a lot of examples for the former, IMNSHO there are none for the latter.

Confucius say: "War never determines who is right. War only determines who is left."

[Lord Kjeran]

Chello!

Was it not Patton who said that the object of war is not to die for your country, but to kill the other son of a bitch for his?

Tony

[First of Two]

Originally posted by Joe Dizzy
There's a difference between having something that's worth fighting for, and something that's worth killing/dying for.

There are a lot of examples for the former, IMNSHO there are none for the latter.

I can think of several.

My life. My freedom. My family's lives. My family's freedom.

There is a saying, which, despite the fact that I don't put much stock in the book it comes from, is nevertheless true:

"Greater love hath no man, that he would lay down his life for his friend."

[Lancer]

Originally posted by Joe Dizzy
There's a difference between having something that's worth fighting for, and something that's worth killing/dying for.

There are a lot of examples for the former, IMNSHO there are none for the latter.

Confucius say: "War never determines who is right. War only determines who is left."

Yeah well, Confucius is credited with saying a whole lot of things.

Joe, while I agree there aren't many - if any - situations where it is worth giving your life or taking someone else's when it comes to politics or worldviews, there is at least one situation I can think of that IMO would be worth giving my life and that would be when it comes to saving the life of someone I really love, e.g. my parents.
And if you agree that there are a lot of examples for something worth fighting for you should think this through to the possible end of a fight. While a fight doesn't have to end with someone being killed, the possibility still exists that having something that's worth fighting for will lead you into a situation when your only choices are to give up fighting or killing/dying.

OTOH I think we don't view this topic so differently. It's just that IMO your POV leaves some possible scenarios that have no sollution at all if you are willing to fight, yet unwilling to see a fight through to it's possibly very ugly consequences.
And please note that killing someone isn't something I would advocate as a solution to any problem, but I can still think of a few situations that would leave me no choice but to give up or kill/die, so I hope I will never have to face one of those situations.

[Joe Dizzy]

Originally posted by Lancer
Joe, while I agree there aren't many - if any - situations where it is worth giving your life or taking someone else's when it comes to politics or worldviews, there is at least one situation I can think of that IMO would be worth giving my life and that would be when it comes to saving the life of someone I really love, e.g. my parents.

How can you being dead help your parents or loved ones in a way that you being alive cannot?

And if you agree that there are a lot of examples for something worth fighting for you should think this through to the possible end of a fight. While a fight doesn't have to end with someone being killed, the possibility still exists that having something that's worth fighting for will lead you into a situation when your only choices are to give up fighting or killing/dying.

How so? It seems to me you're thinking of a very hypothetical situation, constructed in such a way as to lead to only one conclusion.

Still, I can't think of anything that would make it worth killing another human being. Inevitable? Maybe. Worth it? No.

[Lancer]

Joe, sure I am talking about hypothetical situations, but what you said before made it sound like you wouldn't even acknowledge the possibility of situations that would justify giving your life for somebody else. While I agree that for most (let's hope all) of us these situations will never become real my main reason for posting was to point out that such situations may exist, despite your POV that - at least to me - didn't even seem to consider the possibility of such a scenario.

Now let's see about your reply/question:

How can you being dead help your parents or loved ones in a way that you being alive cannot?

Let's re-sate this a little bit differently: Would I be willing to take a bullet for my mother or father?
I think I would, even if I hope I will never come to the (highly unlikely, I admit) situation to find out if this is true or not.
Would I think "it will make no difference in the long run" in such a situation? Frankly I don't know, but I think that's besides the point. If I had to choose between the life of someone dear to me and someone I don't know my choice would be for the one I know and love. If that doesn't agree with your POV that's fine by me, but it's how I feel.
While I - like you I presume - am opposed to war, the death-penalty or any other taking of a human life I can at least imagine a few (very unlikely) situations when my convictions would be overruled by my gut feelings.

Ask yourself this: If you had to choose between the life of someone you love and someone unknown to you, which life would you choose? I will freely admit that this is a very hypothetical scenario, but have you ever even thought about it?
If you are opposed to taking a human life, couldn't there exist a situation in which by inaction you would make a choice between human lifes?
While this is indeed a highly unlikely scenario, your POV - to me at least - does seem a bit narrow. If you make categorical statements like you did they should (IMNSHO at least) cover all possible situations, which (again IMNSHO) you fail to do.

P.S.: If you are okay with it we can just agree to disagree. No reason for us to continue this for no good reason. OTOH, if you really want to continue this discussion we can do so, but I'll leave that to you.

[Sea Tyger]

I completely agree with Mill's assessment. Is there anyone in this room who thought that the war against Nazi Germany was unnecessary? That Britain didn't have to hunt Napolean down, lest he overrun all of Europe (okay, so the French don't have to answer that one )?

Author Beatrice Hall, I think, sums up my beliefs quite nicely: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it."

Freedom, the essential liberties as described in the U.S. Constitution and our Bill of Rights, the protect of my family and friends, those are all things that I would gladly fight and give my life for.

It does not bother me that the civlian leadership of this country sends men to fight and die; we elect them to make those decisions. I do not envy them in that regard; I can only imagine how agonizing such a decision could be.

I am a peace-loving man. But I also know that you sometimes have to fight to ensure the peace you so love. If it means you have to kill the other guy, or make the ultimate sacrifice yourself, so be it.

Ezri, I can't stand you or your viewpoints, but I would gladly give my life to ensure that you continue to have the freedom to share them.