In a way, I partially blame myself…(warning: Ent-rant…)

[Modem]

“…Nobody is going to care about ship not named Enterprise…”

I said that cert. 4 years ago.
Let me set the image:
After a game of ‘Trek’, my gaming group and myself started discussing the fact that Voyager was winding down (it was roughly two years ‘til conclusion, three if watched in one-year delayed syndication). We weighed the pros and cons about the various rumors: A Capt. Sulu Excelsior series, a Starfleet Academy series, a Klingon series, ect.

But, in my opinion the ‘next series’ could only go in one direction: Froward, say to the early-mid 25th Cent.

Establish new events (say a Borg-War, a creation of a ‘Grand Alliance’[Federation, Klingons, and Romulans]), and show the ramifications of thing like: Transphasic Torpedoes, Transwarp…

Add to that, I thought ‘Star Trek: Generation Beyond’ wouldn’t a bad title, and my saying “Look…”, fill in the rest of above quote…and then you could imagine my reaction to what ‘They’ pulled out their as...er, hats (yeah, that what I meant).

And I know Gene was quoted at least once saying “Don’t let continuity get in the way of a good story…”.
I believe the man said a GOOD story.

But this isn’t just a continuity that we’re dealing with here, it actually closer to a history. A ‘pseudo-history’, but a history none the less. And, Gene’s history was established BEFORE the ‘B&B wrecking BBall’.

Voyager was unique, as anything it did had no ramification on the Federation…at least until the last few years of it…anyway, look at the episode “FUTURE'S END, PARTS 1 AND 2”. Not bad…except, where’s the mention of ‘Khan’, and the ‘Eugenics War’…amazing how FAST California recovered isn’t it. That was the biggest sign I had that ‘These guys don’t know what the &%$@ they’re doing’…um, I mean; they forgot their own ‘history’. A war the size of the Eugenics one would not be ‘cleaned up’ in four years…and wouldn’t Khan and co. be ‘splitting the scene’ at the same time as Janeway and…‘crew’ arrived (Voyager arrives 1996, Khan leaves 1996…coincidence??). Look it up:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~johanw/voy-3.html
http://ussconcord.virtualave.net/time.html

Or, how about this:
‘PROJECTIONS’/‘PATHFINDER’…well read for yourself:
http://www.nitpickers.com/tv/nitpicks/2000/1885.html

As I said, THEY forgot their OWN HISTORY…and now their re-writing that history. Ask someone about when first contact happened with the Klingons (2218 not…what ‘THEIR’ trying to cram down our throats). What’s the first long-range ship Earth built (not counting ‘sleeper ships’ the S.S. Valiant: http://www.neutralzone.de/database/P.../Valiant02.htm it has to have warp, look at it’s nacelles).

And I know, the history’s been ‘bumped around’ a little (Cochrane’s warp-flight now supposedly happens post-W.W. III, not before…I guess that make a bit more sense…), but overall, until Ent. showed up, things were more-or-less fine ‘timewise’. Not to mention ‘tech wise’…

Remember this ship:
http://www.neutralzone.de/database/P...Enterprise.htm
THIS should have been the first ENERTPRISE, but NOOOO; ‘they’ didn’t want that. Despite the fact it has credential (it was a picture on the Rec. Deck of Kirk’s ship fer God’s Sake…), ‘they’ thought “let’s let them jump (more like a quantum leap…pun semi-intended) forward about two-hundred years, design-wise. Move the nacelles on the Akira…no one will notice…”

Yeah, right; and Gary Davis will win his own re-call...

And, I don't think being on a network has hurt this, or even Voyager's rating/survivability. Placing it on a network means a constant time and channel. Not so with syndication, where one has to hunt to find the day, time, and channel that air the show.
No, a person, or group of people don't watch a show on a network is because they don't like that show...period.

And this year, what make you think they aren't going to move the show to a new day/time. Look who they're up against as of Oct. (I'll give you all a hint: 'Their' jobs are going to be up "faster than a speeding bullet...")

At least I heard one good rumour: Paramount's already shopping/weighing options for replacments...Excelsior anyone

Sorry if I P.O. a bunch of people, but I really and truly beleave this show, and the BBozos in charge are the one bring the quality down...I hope that both 'It' and 'They' are gone as of the end of this year, and hope Paramount goes back to the drawing board for about three years...that's enough time, don't you think.

(Oh, and I only accept a micro-fraction of the blame...which is more then 'They' have)

[C5]

Err... yeah... so, your point is ?

[Modem]

The idea was right, the direction (timeframe, casting, designs) was wrong; and I'm just plain tired of people telling "It going to last four more years..." (which it won't; either ratings will cause to be yanked, or the network will fold...Viacom's lost over a Billion there already, one more year and *fizzzle*), or "It's better than (insert Star Trek show here)" (which it isn't...)

I also wanted to show how some (like myself) wanted a 'new' 'Trek' (based on an 'Enterprise'...B, C, or F prefered) so bad, we didn't even think of the ramifications cause by TPTB...(Sort of a 'out of the Voyager, into to the Enterprise' thing.)

Plus, I wanted place my general POV on this whole mess (Ent. and the state of 'Trek' in general)...and the most notable thing being "how can 'They' call 'It' Star Trek...when it ain't" (let me guess "George Lucus is doning it..."...Hmmm, yeah but he's George Lucus, and niether one of these two BBums has a last name Rodenberry).

Sorry again to you all if this seems troll-ish, but when you connect those dots...anyway, I'll try to be on better behavior on the future.

Fair?
(Of course, I'll be better when 'it's' gone, and hopefully takes 'them' with 'it', but at least I've got wishes, hopes, dreams, and loads of good 'Trek' to watch in the interim)

[C5]

You know, I don't think Trek will survive Enterprise, and this because not enough people will watch a new Trek series.

Let's split the audience in two : ST fans and non-ST fans.

As far as the fans are concerned, there will never be a ST series that will appeal to a majority of them. This simply because there has been so many ST episodes, so many reasons to like Trek, that there is now too many ST "clans" with varying and often opposing tastes, to write a series that would please a majority of them (least all of them). Just watch on this boards the topics asking people to name their favourite ST series - sometimes I feel there are as many series ranking as fans (ok mathematically that's impossible but you get the point).

As for the non fans audience, three things are preventing them to watch Star Trek :
- Currently, the fashion is not Sci Fi, but fantasy, especially after LOTR. Space opera is not interesting people right now (just count how many Sci Fi series have been cancelled...)
- For some reason, Trek has been labelled as geeky. There can be many explanations for that, but the fact remains that it is often associated to geeks without life. My personal theory is that it's an optimistic setting, and that being nice and friendly is totally uncool.
- You can always find a Trek fan around (or on the Net) to yell that the current Trek series/movie is crap (see above).

Hence, I don't think a ST series can ever be as successful as TOS reruns or TNG were. I sincerely hope I'm wrong, but I feel that if Enterprise is cancelled, TPTB will decide that ST is no longer viable since it doesn't carry its horde of drones-like fans who'll watch it no matter what, and definitely end the franchise.

Oh well. I'll still have the RPG and the novels (some of them are good actually) to have my Trek fix.

[Scarecrow]

I think the large part of the problem is that Star Trek has simply been done to death. It's outstayed its welcome and become stale and repetative. It's tried to re-invent itself but people want the Star Trek they know and love. I'm pretty sure if they got that they'd then complain that it's just the same old thing again.

I really wanted to Like Enterprise. A great cast and some interesting characters. I love the whole post-NASA look and feel of the show. But something doesn't work and I can't help feeling it's down to simple familiarity. We've seen it all before.

We saw it all in TOS. Then we saw it all again in TNG and then we saw it all again in DS9 and then AGAIN in Voyager and now we're seeing it all AGAIN in Enterprise.

They may well yank Enterprise and they may well replace it with something else but I don't think that'll fare any better in the ratings nomatter who's in charge.

I think Star Trek needs to have a break. The three years you suggested sounds great, maybe longer. Long enough for styles and ideas and themes to change signifgantly enough that a new show will feel fresh and different and revitalised - much the same as TNG felt after the long wait after the Original Series.

Crow

[JonA]

Originally posted by Scarecrow
They may well yank Enterprise and they may well replace it with something else but I don't think that'll fare any better in the ratings nomatter who's in charge.

I think Star Trek needs to have a break. The three years you suggested sounds great, maybe longer. Long enough for styles and ideas and themes to change signifgantly enough that a new show will feel fresh and different and revitalised - much the same as TNG felt after the long wait after the Original Series.

Whislt I'll agree that familiarity breeds contempt in a particular product I don't think Star Trek is such a case. Star Trek, like James Bond, Star Wars etc transcends being labelled as just another television show/film franchise. It's an institution. A household name. Like it or loath it EVERYONE in the modern world knows what it is and if in three years you told them that Star Trek was dead and gone then I reckon they'd express shock rather than glee. This says a lot about a show and the responsability placed on the shoulders of the producers, writers and directors. I think many people forget that.

I will admit I have to agree with the point that Enterprise is unpopular with the Star Trek fanbase for it's lack of continuity and I also agree that moving forward to a future time for any new series is better than moving back (thats why I'm dubious about any Excelsior based series). However I don't think Star Trek is dead.

Viewing figures for reruns of the previous series are consistent and the reason Enterprise has not taken off is nothing really to do with the lack of consistency within the established setting. It's to do with the fact it is generally poorly written compared to the stuff that occured in the TNG and DS9. Voyager suffered the same problem as the series progressed too. Where as TNG (after it found it's feet) was, on the whole, consistent in it's quality. DS9 was the same (even more so - I defy anyone to find a poor episode from half way through season 5 to the end of season 7).

I believe that people genuinely want Star Trek to remain. But not with Enterprise. People may laugh at Star Trek but they can't deny it's longevity. Thats not a cult, or a fad but an institutional quality. People may point at Star Trek and go - it's old, let it go - but I think it'll be missed by alot of people if it disappears. Many feel that Enterprise does not do Star Trek justice - and I agree. I've been disappointed by Enterprise but I still love Star Trek.

A part-time Trek fan and close friend has suggested maybe if they changed writers and got rid of the Berman/Braga force then it may improve. Fresh blood and all that. And I agree. It may work but it's not gonna happen. Or at the very least bring in Ira Steven Behr and the rest of the DS9 crew. Let them loose on the show. Then watch would happen.

Anyway - I've said enough.

[Dan Stack]

I think C5 has it essentially correct.

On the idea of giving Trek a hiatus of a few years, I don't think that is too likely. The structure of Hollywood being what it is, I think if Trek goes off the air it'll stay off the air.

That said, for good or for ill, I suspect Enterprise is the last Star Trek.

[Evan van Eyk]

Originally posted by Dan Stack
On the idea of giving Trek a hiatus of a few years, I don't think that is too likely. The structure of Hollywood being what it is, I think if Trek goes off the air it'll stay off the air.

That said, for good or for ill, I suspect Enterprise is the last Star Trek.

No, I don't think so. Trek was away for several years already before ST: TMP was made. And, although I do not like that movie very much the following ones actually revived the franchise and made a new series possible and concluded in what we have now. However I think ENT is Trek, pure Trek, until the point where they made it a war-series. And Nemesis failure has nothing to do with Trek, but with dramaturgic mistakes. But that is another topic.
I think a pause might do the trick and actually remind people the good points about Trek. Star Wars was away for 20 years and now it back again. Of course people complain about bad stories, etc. - but the old ones had their bad points too. So give Trek a break of 10 years and all will remember the grand Trek time of the last century's 90's and a new generation of Trek fans will join us "old" ones and bang somebody will remember to milk the "Trekcow" again and make money with it.

[Tobian]

One thing that Enterprise has in it's favour is that it is 'star trek' - like it or loathe it fans will still watch it even if it's only to go 'my god what the hell did they put Ferengi's in there for?!?'.

I do think that the writers are too bad, it's just the continuity controll across the whole series. it does need to be more tightly controlled than any other series and that's exactly what it is not, which i have to agree will be the death of it. I have a feeling it will become the 'animated series' of the 21st century!

I have mixed opinions about the excelsior show. There was something so very nice about the movie era starships, the filming the camera angles and the constumes that made it so much more 'real' than any show before or since in the snipets we've seen of it. Excelsior is one lovelly ship too! On the down side it suffers many of the problems as 'Enterprise' because you are back filling.

What I think I would prefer (as i agree with Dan about taking down Trek) is that we grit our teeth for a few more series of Enteprise, and while it's going they start working on it's replacement.

I don't think that Voyager represents So many repercussions as you might think, as after all THEY never dealt with any of them. Don't forget, the ablative armour matrix and transphasic torpedoes were only any good because they were from the future, and the Borg had never encountered their like before - but the Borg..... yes you've heard it before.... ADAPT and then they are next to useless again. There's been dozens of plots just like it - The Breen energy drain weapon - The Romulan 'super' plasma weapon - a solution is found and then it becomes a non issue again. My biggest problem in seeing an E-F show is that it has to be off the Enterprise - Stewart won't do another series, which leaves us with Frakes... I just can't quite see USS TITAN as a series, with him at the helm, he's been stuck in the first officer rut for so long I'm not sure he could make a good captain (from a TV perspecitve) which means we have to unite a new crew together - maybe with a few familiar faces thrown in as we have always had

of course that's just a fan's few ramblings which they never take any notice of as they run it in to the ground!

[Sea Tyger]

I was one of those 12-year-olds blown away by the spectacle of Star Trek II, and while I was already a fan of TOS, I became a Trekkie in every sense of the word at that point.

TNG was okay, although I initially didn't like the look of the new uniforms (nor could I truly accept the Cadillac-like Enterprise-D). I enjoyed DS9, although my schedule prevented me from watching the show as often as I would have liked (I still haven't seen "Trials and Tribbleations"). And, for me, Voyager was a chore that I couldn't stomach for long periods of time.

Now, with Enterprise, I feel like I'm watching TOS again. I get excited about watching the next new episode, the same way that 12-year-old was looking forward to the next TOS rerun on local TV, or the next movie. Sure, there are some continuity/storyline glitches that tweak me here and there...but, then, TOS wasn't exactly consistent, either (and I can tolerate that more than the self-aggrandizing holier-than-thou feel of the 24th Century). And bad episodes? TNG and DS9 had their share, as well.

I'm certainly looking forward to season 3 and beyond. I want the show to go seven years, but if it doesn't, then I'll enjoy it while it lasts.

I think C5 is right in that Trek fandom is so widespread, that the producers won't be able to write anything that will satisfy a majority of them. It may take a hiatus to bring Trekdom back together...although I say, selfishly, "not now" (at least, not without another good sci-fi show on TV to distract me ).

(And as far as Trek's "geek" factor is concerned, just look at the Comcast commercial where two "hot babes" {those anorexic "I can't believe I kept some food down today" stick-pins were neither to me, but that's a different subject } fend off a couple of systems engineering nerds by changing the channel to Star Trek. That's what the mainstream thinks of us.)

I'll stop here before I start babbling....

[Tobian]

Actually the ultimate test of weather Enterprise can keep going is if it can set the 'episode 3 barrier'

TNG had "best of Both Worlds"
DS9 had "The Way of the Warrior"
Voyager "Scorpion"

The pivotal episodes that FINALLY put them on the map. Especially so for both TNG and Voyager these episodes set the bar that set the future course of the series. yeah of course ALL the series are repleat with episodes which suck - but these depend on the person, it isn't universal.. But those 3rd series cliffhangers seem to be the thing which makes the series. Sure there might come better episodes later, but then that's what a bar is for!

Weather Enterprise can do something similar remains to be seen, but my money is going to be on the beginning of the Romulan war! A Super flashy battle sequence, maybe a colony veing destroyed, legions of Romulans invading , neuclear arms races.. could be good, but I am sure they'll blow continuity WELL out of the water! Ahh well lets wait and see.....

[Space_Cadet]

You know, I hear alot of Berman and Braga bashing but I can understand the Braga bashing but i'll explain that later, but Berman. I think Berman had done a pretty good job with trek over the last decade. Take a look at DS9 and the half of the TNG films (First Contact and Generations-i actually liked latter). Braga on the other hand, scripted my fave TNG films but the stuff that he's been saying lately about the inclusion of MACOs kinda frightens me.... the whole space mariens thing has been beaten to death by scifi writers after watching Aliens.

But anyhow, i don't see anything wrong with Enterprise. I think its a lot fresher from the previous 24th century series where the techonology is "god-like", but the post-NASA thing feels kinda wierd which i think will wear off when Starfleet evolves in the series. Plus we'd probably see the Earth Romulan war. By the way, I don't see how a Starfleet Academy Stadate 90210 show would be any better... where's the adventure in it?

[senussi@hotmail.com]

I agree with Sea Tyger, and not just because he's a shipmate. The continuity issues do bug me now and again but honestly I like the show. ENT excites me. I'm a little weirded out by the Klingons though and I'm anxious about the episode with the Romulans because I haven't seen it. And I am not sure how I feel about the Temporal Cold War or this Xindi storyline. But, I actually like the crew. I like that we get to actually see familiar aliens (more Vulcans than Spock and his old man, recurring Andorian characters). And it IS new. We haven't seen this before and it's still Trek.
I think this constantly going forward has been a mistake. The Borg movies were excessive and Nemesis? What the heck was that? Sure I like to see a good space battle but I like a story and sorry the last few movies have been gun battles, bizarre one-liners and the same old Data jokes. Why can't they do something besides save the Earth/Federation/Universe? Of course when you compare it to Wrath of Khan (which I saw on opening day when I was 8 at Newmarket North mall in Newport News Va, and almost pissed myself when I came out of the show and was confronted by a merch vendor who was dressed just like Khan.. wow great memory ), nothing compares to WOK. Ultimately also I have to agree with C5 as well. Trek has gotten so huge that there's no way everyone can be satisfied. If you don't like it, write your own series and sell it.

CP

[Capt. Anderson]

I've watched all five variations and nothing will be like the orginal series so stick to what works.

ENT was not well excuted idea but it did have a good cast. Archer and company should have been on Ent-B and the Excelsior with a rotating story arc between Sulu and Archer. With an occasional guest star from the orginal series.

[Owen E Oulton]

I agree with Sea Tyger - I like Enterprise...

As for Berman - he saved Trek. Watch the first two seasons of TNG. Two full seasons of barely coherent episodes with poorly constructed stories (beginning, then middle, then end, guys, in that order...). That's when Roddenberry was running things. At the beginning of season 3, Berman took over, and quality steadily rose, until we began getting episodes like Yesterday's Enterprise and Best of Both Worlds.