Too Many Skills?

[pathstrider]

I'm having problems, and hoping people could help.

I ran a session today where the crew were investigating an abandoned space station from a long dead race (The T'kon, from TNG season 1, for reference)

Now, this meant their were a lot of rolls made to get information - mainly from ship sensors and tricorders.

Basically, looking at the skill list, I was somewhat overwhelmed at the list of skills that _could_ be used:

Systems Op (Sensors) - For general tricorder and shipbaord senors

Any of the science skills - for various scans (life signs, etc...)

I'm wondering how these differ - should they give the same information - i.e. are they just different ways of doing the same thing? (e.g. Shipboard Systems(Sensors) to scan with a tricorder -As it implies in the SOM - giving the same as the Life Sciences roll with a tricorder)

And if not, which one is used?

In addition to this, how does investigate fit in?

The contary I'm in is that sometimes I'm not sure which skill test I should be calling for.

Also, if all these skills get the same info - why am I (As the GM) asking the players to collect a bunch of useless skills? I gather that it's the intention of the system, given the basic packages give you all these different skills and the example characters in the NG have them.

On a related note - why does a Engineer Officer need repair? Surely he can accomplise all he needs with the relevent Engineering?

Basically, It looks like (Too my mind) that the system has too many skills that overlap too much, and I'm tempted to compress some of the skills to make it easier on the players- who are getting a little confused at this point.

Hope that made sense - and hope soemone can help.

Mark,

[Njxt]

I tend to agree with you.
Repair is IMHO, redondant with Engineering.
As for Indoctrinate/Persuade/Influence.
One skill with specialties would have been enough to me.
And Sport and Gymnastics ?
Construct/Engineering ?

Sometimes I'm quite lost. Other examples :
In a starship, when to use Tactics and System Ops (Tactical) ?
Roll Tactics first to know what to do, then roll System Ops(Tactical) to verify that you are able to it ?

On the particular subject of sensors, there are several ways to solve it :
- the PCs are searching for particular traces (biological remains for exemple). Science (Biology) and System Operation (Sensors) would be implied. IMO, the PC rolls his best skills and add an affinity bonus from the other skill.
Then, if he rolled System Ops, he will have the result quickly (1 Full Round) but the interpretation of the collected data will come later (he concentrates on collecting). If he rolls Science (Biology), he'll need 2 Full Rounds to find something (because he has been slow on manipulating the tricorder, only concentrating on reading carefully the results as they come).
So, in either cases, the PC can be interrupted during scan (after the first round).
With the first method, he will have all the data stored in the tricorder (unless he does another scan later) but won't have a clue about the results.
With the second method, he'll have partial results.
What do you think of that ?
- the PCs are searching for "anything worth notice" =>System Ops (sensors) with no affinity bonus at all. And every Full Round spend searching, they have a chance to find something (depending on their rolls).

[Dan Gurden]

Well. In ICON, I use the following house rule, that translates quite well to this situation...

When making a skill test, I try to work out which skill(s) are the most appropriate, those skills can be used at the base difficulty, and the basic non-specialisation skill can equally be used instead...

Related skills that a player can justify are then applied with +1 level of difficulty.

For example (a current one in our game). A localised sub-space anomaly is occuring and the nobody on site has the appropriate Sub-Space knowledge to look into it... And so the Engineers and Science on site are using their Warp Drive knowledge (and the relevant knowledge of Sub-Space warp fields etc) to apply to the situation...

I see this multiple redundancy of skills in a game as a good thing, allowing all players to face all situations no matter what. The only drawback is when the players do not see the opportunities to expand their role in the game, and that is our job as narators.

[Tobian]

The way it seems to me that sensors work is that you can use System operations for ship board sensors, but a Tricorder basically functions as a +5 bonus to your current skill. I.e. whenever I just want someone to notice something (a enemy sneaking up on them, a coolant leak etc) they just use their observe (Spot). To notice it with the Tricoder bonus. If they want to then analyse how many of these unknown people there are, and what composition; or what sort of substance it is and how to fix it then they use their respective skills. I.e. Lifesciences +5 to work out what enemies they are looking at on the tricorder; and an engineering or science roll to work out what is leaking.

In the case of overlap - well it's not THAT much - you don't always want to use heavy engineering knowledge. That will be of no use to an engineer who is trying to fix a bow and arrow The point is having skills results in synergies. If you have high levels in repair, then it aids your engineering and vice versa. If you have a skill simmilar to what you need, then you can get a partial bonus from it.

In many ways the system reflects the fact that you just need to know SO much in Startrek. You can't know it all. But you can take knowledge in something simmilar and apply it. That way it helps you get round skills whih can't be used untrained. I.e. a Joe public guy won't have a clue how subspace mechanics work, but an engineer, while not possesing the core scientific knowledge, understands how warp fields work, so he has a partial understanding etc.

[Doug Burke]

Originally posted by pathstrider
Basically, looking at the skill list, I was somewhat overwhelmed at the list of skills that _could_ be used:

Systems Op (Sensors) - For general tricorder and shipbaord senors

Any of the science skills - for various scans (life signs, etc...)

I'm wondering how these differ - should they give the same information - i.e. are they just different ways of doing the same thing? (e.g. Shipboard Systems(Sensors) to scan with a tricorder -As it implies in the SOM - giving the same as the Life Sciences roll with a tricorder)

And if not, which one is used?

It's a matter of specificity and application. Systems Operation (Sensors), which is normally used for running an actual console, can provide general, or basic information. The specific science skills provide more specific and in depth information.

In addition to this, how does investigate fit in?

Investigate serves the same purpose as System Operations (Sensors), but relies on more immediate observations.

On a related note - why does a Engineer Officer need repair? Surely he can accomplise all he needs with the relevent Engineering?

Again, it's a matter of degree. Repair is used for normal maintenance and small repairs, while Engineering is used for large repairs and more theoretical applications.

[Njxt]

Originally posted by Doug Burke
Investigate serves the same purpose as System Operations (Sensors), but relies on more immediate observations.

But why don't use "Observe" instead ?
Or am I missing something ?

NB : I must be some kind of "skill idiot" since I have the same problems with "spot and search" in the D20 system.

[Tobian]

Well investigate would be more to do with looking for something specific in a room, or even sifting through a slew of data that the computer had just thrown at you (Remember a computer can be TOO effective sometimes!), you use your wits and brains to work out what's what and connect the dots, all the computer really does is save you from the old fashioned processes, such as searching a thousand and one microfiches for that clue, or going round and ashing 101 people.

Observe(spot) has more to do with just noticing it's there in the first place. Yes computers and tricorders are remarkable tools, but filtering out that one piece of vital information informationsuch as 'The klingons are closing on our position' from 'there's an interesting cirius cloud overhead' is down to your ability to notice it in the first place. Just because you have a Tricorder doesn't mean you know in advance something is going to happen, with the exception of notifying you of it before it gets closer than your normal senses would know (Hence a +5)

In the same sense in D&D - spot is to see that trap coming before it's too late and Search is to look round the room for that hidden parchment underneath the old book case...

[pathstrider]

Firstly, a big thanks to everyone who's replyed. It's helping, it really is.


Doug Said:

It's a matter of specificity and application. Systems Operation (Sensors), which is normally used for running an actual console, can provide general, or basic information. The specific science skills provide more specific and in depth information.

That's what I figured - to be honest I'm not so much having a problem with this now that I think about it. I reckon I'll make the players roll the skills and just use the Systems Ops on a trocorder if they don't have the skills.


Doug said:

Again, it's a matter of degree. Repair is used for normal maintenance and small repairs, while Engineering is used for large repairs and more theoretical applications.

Well, this kinda brings up my main point - what happens if a character has engineering but not repair? Does that mean they can only do big repairs?

Tobian said:

In many ways the system reflects the fact that you just need to know SO much in Startrek

I guess I'm not comfortable with this aspect of the system - the on screen characters seem to do anything and everything, regardless of their position or experience - and I don't think that's best represented with a whole load of skills.

But that bit's my problem - not the system.

Njxt said:

With the first method, he will have all the data stored in the tricorder (unless he does another scan later) but won't have a clue about the results.

That's a good point - I hadn't considered the time periods involved. Thanks!

Anyway, thanks guys - this is going a long way. Hope you can help me all the way!

Later days!

Mark

[Sea Tyger]

Originally posted by pathstrider

Well, this kinda brings up my main point - what happens if a character has engineering but not repair? Does that mean they can only do big repairs?

I think of it this way: Engineering deals with "ship systems" (i.e, Impulse, Ship's Phasers, Shields, Hull). Repair deals with "installed or personal equipment" (helm/nav/whatever console, tricorder, replicator/food processor). I don't consider there to be any major overlap between the two

Also, I would find it highy unlikely that anyone who has spent any significant amount of picks in Engineering skills would not have Repair as a skill. Honestly, all Starfleet officers should have Repair as a skill, but it would be absurd for an engineer of any fleet to not have it. In fact, were I narrating a PC engineer who came to me with no repair skill, I'd tell him to rework the character to include the repair skill in his/her repertoire.

[Arnold Rimmer]

Back to an earlier topic...
Look up Affinity Bonuses. In your first example, They'd use System Ops, and gain some bonus from their science skill when scanning for whatever their science skill is a part of.

[pathstrider]

Look up Affinity Bonuses. In your first example, They'd use System Ops, and gain some bonus from their science skill when scanning for whatever their science skill is a part of.

That's true - but it's only +1. Plus there's still the question of which skill is primary.

Especially since if I did the science test that way my tactical officer with a higher sys ops skill would be better then the science officer!

I do use affinity bonus's - but my confusion over he tricorder thing came from the main book which implies that you just use the relevent skill (This case science) with +5.

It's only the SOM that introduces using Sys Ops to use it.

Thanks for the answer though - I should have made it clearer that I do use affinity bonuses.

Thanks!

Mark

[Doug Burke]

Originally posted by Njxt
But why don't use "Observe" instead ?
Or am I missing something ?

Again, a matter of degree. Observe is noticing things, almost in a reactive sort of way. You spot something amiss, you hear the footstep behind you. Investigate is much more in-depth. It's deductive reasoning mixed with in-dpeth search, etc. Dr. Watson uses Observe, Sherlock Holmes uses Investigate.

NB : I must be some kind of "skill idiot" since I have the same problems with "spot and search" in the D20 system.

You know, I've had the same discussion about Spot-Search, too. It was the first example I thought of, and then discarded when I read this note...

[Doug Burke]

Originally posted by pathstrider
That's true - but it's only +1. Plus there's still the question of which skill is primary.

Whichever is higher.

I do use affinity bonus's - but my confusion over he tricorder thing came from the main book which implies that you just use the relevent skill (This case science) with +5.

It's only the SOM that introduces using Sys Ops to use it.

Personally, as a Narrator, I'd run it that System Ops is used for a basic "I'm going to scan with my Tricorder" scan and then the individual skills would be used for more intensive scans. For example, "I want to use my Tricorder to trace the microfracture in the dam so I can place my phaser shot in the perfect place to bring it down" would be a Material Engineering (Civil) test at +5. Kind of like the Observe-Investigate thing...

[Tobian]

To be honest, the way I would work it anyway, is that a character simply needs to have system operations to be able to use a Tricrder, or more specifically systems operations in an alien technology (I.e. Romulan) to use something which is not familiar too him.

I much prefer the idea of simply using your tricorder to enhance the skills you already posses, so for the example Doug gave, if you didn't have any civil engineering skills, you'd be hard pressed to work out where exactly to hit that dam at all! Equally if you have a low observe skill, then equally you fail to observe the Tricorder flashing in big red letters you are standing in a tar pit

[P'l]

Originally posted by pathstrider

Especially since if I did the science test that way my tactical officer with a higher sys ops skill would be better then the science officer!

Well, it is infact not impossible that your Crew's tactical officer would be better at using sensors to detect some new interesting phenomenon, atleast assuming he as a reasonable idea what to look for, or perhaps a reasonable idea that "This is just so plain strange, let's see what it is!"

Interpreting what the sensors say however, figuring out that, yes, this is infact something new, never seen before. Or perhaps it's just a "Wilkinson's anomally", unusual, even rare, but certainly not unknown...

That is the real of the science officer.
Anyone can see stuff. Science is when you sit down and explain it rationally, preferbly in math.