Hidden roles, does your group use them.

[mcb]

This thread is slightly Inpired from the Narrator screen discussion. Another use for the Narrator screen is for hidden roles. We have been doing this since back when we were playing d20. Usually the narrator will make a role for a character so the character does not know if they did good or bad. Several of the players in our group (the controll freeks ;-P) did not like the idea of the DM rolling dice for us behing the screen so we made a DM screen ( out of 1/8 aluminum plate) with a door in it for players to thow the dice through. The dice land in a nice lexan box for the DM to see. This allows the players to role the dice without seeing the results.

Weather you use an over engineer DM screen like ours or just let the Narrator role for the characters do you guys use hidden roles. It is never mentioned in LotR core book, but many other systems use them. A good example would be when the characters are making a observe skill check. If they role out in the open then they know if the observed well or not. If their role is hidden then the narrator can see the results and if it is good give them useful information and if they role bad they can be miss informed or just not see anything and the player doesn't know if the info is good or bad. It makes role playing the character easier. If the player roles bad and knows it then he will not trust the Narrator's information or do something to compesate for the bad role. But if the role hidded and then the narrator give them info then it is easier for the player to have his character take the info at face value.

What do you guys think?
mcb

[whiteknight]

I would say it's a good idea in certain circumstances like for Observe (Spot or Listen) checks simply because if you tell a player to make a spot or listen check, it will tip them off that something might be waiting in ambush, even if they fail the roll (kinda like you already described .

)

Otherwise, I would say that a small part of the fun of playing is letting the players roll the dice and control their own character.

[Feeves]

But what could be hidden roles in the LOTR? Everyone is good, although albiet different reasons. So would hidden roles be used to find a character's true purpose for coming on the quest?

[whiteknight]

Originally posted by Feeves
But what could be hidden roles in the LOTR? Everyone is good, although albiet different reasons. So would hidden roles be used to find a character's true purpose for coming on the quest?

I think it's a typo. He's talking about having the Narrator make a skill ROLL for the player if he/she doesn't necessarily want the player to know the result.

[Feeves]

Ahhh that might solve some of the confusion I was having.

[Mitchell]

It also helps prevent a player from getting stabbed by a single , lucky orc, or a important NPC from getting killed in a freak accident.

Or the character failing a social roll with an NPC who would give him an important item.

[Jason Durall]

I tend to follow the principle that has become more popular in games these days that you shouldn't bother with rolling for something unless it is absolutely necessary, to minimize the number of wild dice rolls screwing up otherwise straightforward situations.

[ben hur]

Originally posted by Jason Durall
I tend to follow the principle that has become more popular in games these days that you shouldn't bother with rolling for something unless it is absolutely necessary, to minimize the number of wild dice rolls screwing up otherwise straightforward situations.

I rather follow with that as well, but a little differently.

A lot of times there is really no reason to make a test... I mean, it's success or failure won't affect the situation. Trying to make sure that all the tests actually <i>do</i> something is probably the hardest problem I have narrating.

I really would love to try doing an actualy <i>roleplaying story</i> where there is no dice, luck, stats, or what have you, just story-telling. I don't know how it'd work, but it'd be awesome to try.

The problem is that I'm 15 and I play with my little brothers... so they, ahem, like rolling dice a lot. A lot, lot... like, as in, a <i>lot</i>.

Ah well, they try to get the roleplaying to look neat, I don't blame them for being kids (heck, I'm a kid) but all too often they subside into quoting LotR, Star Wars, the Princess Bride, Pirates of the Caribbean, Spider-man, and so on.

So I don't know how they'd handle it. Like I saw in someone's profile on this forum, they'd probably just say "You know, this roleplaying stuff is kind of silly... let's just roll some dice"

[Sarge]

I'm horrified, ben hur! How can you have an RPG and not quote Monty Python's Holy Grail?! I mean, Princess Bride and SW and Pirates are all totally quotable, but you can't game without quoting the Grail! It's... inconceivable!

My group doesn't use hidden rolls. Most of us are mature players who will not abuse the rules by responding to things we don't know about. We have been known to try to think up an excuse to do something even though our characters wouldn't know that they should do it. It's all just part of the story-building process.

[ben hur]

Originally posted by Sarge
I'm horrified, ben hur! How can you have an RPG and not quote Monty Python's Holy Grail?! I mean, Princess Bride and SW and Pirates are all totally quotable, but you can't game without quoting the Grail! It's... inconceivable!

Why do you say that word? I do not think it means what you think it means.

I adore all the movies I mentioned that they quote from, but the problem is that they don't tend to say <i>anything</i> original if they can help it!

But really, I don't mind after all, as long as we are having fun, all is good.

(Turn me over, I'm done on this side! )

[HawkeyeLonewolf]

Sometimes the DM wants to force the direction of the game, and still make things seem random...

My DM used to roll all the time behind the screen. You never knew what he was rolling for. Sometimes just a nervous habit, other times for skill checks.

It works out best if they do it. It doesn't hurt the players to not make each roll (and in most cases probably helps them)

[Ineti]

I hide lots of rolls. Sometimes I'll make Spot and Listen checks for the heroes before the game session and note the scores, this allows me to narrate the game events without having to tip my hand and say "make a spot check....you rolled a 6? Hmm, okay". I feel that breaks the narrative flow of the game. I'd much rather say something like, "You round the corner and enter a narrow hallway. Aradan is not surprised to see three spiders jump out at you, but Hild...you were busy trying to step carefully over the rubble, so you're surprised when three horrid furry leggy things leap out at you! Roll initiative."

All of the NPC combat rolls are made out of sight of the players. This maximizes my ability to fudge things as needed. I never let the dice dictate the results of the game.

[AslanC]

I hide my rolls, but always make the players roll in the open. But sometimes it can be heartbreaking watching the crappy roll come up at the dramatic moment.

[ben hur]

Originally posted by AslanC
I hide my rolls, but always make the players roll in the open. But sometimes it can be heartbreaking watching the crappy roll come up at the dramatic moment.

True, true. But one way to avoid it is to not tell them the target number...

Also, somebody suggested to me this house rule, which I think is really neat (I think it might have been Bombur, I forget now):

If a character roleplays his test really well, let him roll three dice instead of the normal two and take the two highest.

Conversely, if a character roleplays his test really badly, let him roll three diec instead of the normal two and take the two lowest.

This seems to work rather well, and is extremely simple.