My 4th Age game (revisited)

[AslanC]

Okay again the more I think about it the more the main bad guy should just straight up be a human. So Herumor should be the identity that Dolomir takes on after being exposed to the Morgothian cult in the east.

The cult could have been started by one of the Blue Wizards, but perhaps they have fallen along the way... Killed each other when one tried to stop the other.

Still not sure about these shadow elves, might drop the whole idea.

Now as for the Orcs, not sure what way to go there. But a whole truck load of corrupted Gondorians/Cosairs of Umbar would make for a great army of evil men.

Grrrr... I gotta stop thinking

[Manveru]

Those are some great ideas! Keep working with 'em. The Blue Wizards are a shoo-in for one or two new villians. Maybe only one of them 'Fell' from grace, and the other is trying to stop the 'Bad' one. Or maybe he just seems like it. ;-) (sorry, sorry ..)

I think for the time period you are setting the story in, Orcs are just fine. There hasn't been enough time to probably do more than repair all the hurts from the war, if that, I'm sure the Wilds are still plenty wild, and the Orcs would certainly retreat back to the Mountains, although they may be hiding a lot.

But your Age of Man theme is dead on, so I say keep that in there. Aragorn was said to have conquered or made peace with nearly all of the Easterlings and Southrons around and about. But surely some displaced former tyrants/nobility might not consider such things to be a good turn ... *cue dramatic music*

You're all set with what you've got, just flesh out the details. :-)

[Manveru]

Villainous dark elves set on conquering Middle Earth or something would seem out of place in the 4th Age, or any Age of ME to me. I can perhaps see some xenophobic Avari, but Tolkien mentioned that he thought they would largely turn out to be teachers of Men in the East. What Men would be in turn to the Elves is probably wide open.

It was actually supposed that Illuvatar's original intention was for the Elves to be the teachers of Men. But Melkor's rebellion caused the Valar to summon the Elves to Aman. The fallout from this act (i.e. most of the events in the Silmarillion) gave the Valar more incentive to become less overtly involved in the affairs of Middle Earth and the children of Illuvatar even before the First Age.

[AslanC]

Originally posted by Manveru
Those are some great ideas! Keep working with 'em. The Blue Wizards are a shoo-in for one or two new villians. Maybe only one of them 'Fell' from grace, and the other is trying to stop the 'Bad' one. Or maybe he just seems like it. ;-) (sorry, sorry ..)

LOL! Now you are being mean

Seriously though, I think one of the Blue Wizards is fine as the bad guy. If you were running this story would you have him be Herumor, or Dolomir be herumor? Or, would you have him be both, having killed Dolomir and taken his form?

I think for the time period you are setting the story in, Orcs are just fine. There hasn't been enough time to probably do more than repair all the hurts from the war, if that, I'm sure the Wilds are still plenty wild, and the Orcs would certainly retreat back to the Mountains, although they may be hiding a lot.

Agreed. Would they use them? I guess as creations of Morgoth it would be stupid of them not to. What other creations did he have?

Also, what of my shadow elves? The dwarves? The hobbits? What would you do in my place?

But your Age of Man theme is dead on, so I say keep that in there. Aragorn was said to have conquered or made peace with nearly all of the Easterlings and Southrons around and about. But surely some displaced former tyrants/nobility might not consider such things to be a good turn ... *cue dramatic music*

And let's face it, peace does not mean friendship. Just because Elessar brought them to peace, doesn't mean they are jumping up and down about it a couple hundred years later. Grudges grow with time in these cases, as our own world shows.

You're all set with what you've got, just flesh out the details. :-)

There in lies the issue.

I have them arriving at Rivendell next session, I need to know if I sack it first or not.

Sacking it provides the harsh reality that things are up and serious. But on the down side it might be too much too soon.

Not sacking it allows me to have a place where they can gather allies and learn of things, but later I can sack it at will. The downside being they have stong allies as a result and may not feel "on their own" against the cultists.

I mean I love the idea of armies waiting just to the East and South, ready to pour into Eriador under the flag of Herumor. That is a keeper.

Plus with Orcs in the North and regathering in Mordor, perhaps men will need their Dwarven allies.

Just seems to me that if I involve the Dwarves I am diminishing the importance of Age of Man.

Thoughts? Guidence? Suggestions? Derision? Mockery? Small velvet capes?

[AslanC]

Originally posted by Manveru
Villainous dark elves set on conquering Middle Earth or something would seem out of place in the 4th Age, or any Age of ME to me. I can perhaps see some xenophobic Avari, but Tolkien mentioned that he thought they would largely turn out to be teachers of Men in the East. What Men would be in turn to the Elves is probably wide open.

Now what if these elves, the Avari, knowing they could never go to Valinor, bread into the blood of the easterners? That could work right?

Creating almost a new offshoot race of men, like the men Dol Amroth being decended from Dunedain, bu possibly having the blood of Elves in their history.

[ben hur]

Originally posted by AslanC
I have them arriving at Rivendell next session, I need to know if I sack it first or not.

Sacking it provides the harsh reality that things are up and serious. But on the down side it might be too much too soon.

Not sacking it allows me to have a place where they can gather allies and learn of things, but later I can sack it at will. The downside being they have stong allies as a result and may not feel "on their own" against the cultists.

Dude, sacking a place like Rivendell can be one of the most tragic, motivating, and awesome things you can do in a Tolkien chronicle, that's a solid idea. I definitely think it should happen in your game, though possibly not yet. You want to make sure you do it at just the right time, when it will do it's best of shocking them.

In other words, you may want them to spend some time there, or be on the way there for something like a wedding (just thinking of possible 'emotionally charged' scenes, heh), and then find it in smoking ruin.

So, I think it's definitely an idea of great merit, but you should be careful to do it at just the right time, when it will really catch them off-guard. Good luck!

[Manveru]

Originally posted by AslanC
LOL! Now you are being mean

Seriously though, I think one of the Blue Wizards is fine as the bad guy. If you were running this story would you have him be Herumor, or Dolomir be herumor? Or, would you have him be both, having killed Dolomir and taken his form?

Hmmm ... can't say without having an idea for the plot and some idea as to the characters. To be honest, I'd be entirely tempted not to figure this out for myself!

I'd keep at least the perception of the 'Good' Blue Wizard vs. the 'Bad' Blue Wizard. Whether this perception is real or not *shrug* it works either way, so if you can't decide which one to do, it doesn't really matter which one you decide to do, because they both must be appealing. I'd go this way because it's fairly rich with plot twist material, and 'guiding hand' tools (i.e. you could 'recruit' the PCs into the service of one of the 'Good' BW). If you decided to have the 'Good' BW actually BE good, then that gives you a Gandalf character to use, and the players might respond to that very well.

And you have the possibility of a deeper plot thread. Since, technically, only Gandalf succeeded in his task, what does that mean now for the Blue Wizards? Obviously, the one who is evil is not going back to Valinor soon, but the one that is good might HAVE to defeat his evil peer (and former friend!) in order to regain the favour of the Valar, so there'd be a strong personal motivation on the part of the 'Good' BW.

I'd probably lean toward making Pallando the 'Good' one, since Alatar seemed as eager and proud as Curumo, and I can easily see him falling to some of the same temptation. Both were friends of the other in Valinor, and both were Maiar of Orome, the hunter. And Alatar could be deemed the stronger and more gifted, this would be easy to support, and if he were to abondon his mission and take up the reigns of power, he could probably outmatch Pallando in a mano-a-mano. This would cause Pallando to seek allies.

I think the first place he might go would be to Radagast, and thence perhaps to Celeborn in Rivendell (if he's still there in your story, with the sons of Elrond). Unless the PCs have some special advantage or association, or Pallando doesn't want the 'Wise' to get involved or know for some reason, I don't know why Pallando wouldn't seek help from the few remaining persons of power he might know about. Perhaps he doesn't even know who the 'Wise' of NW middle earth are yet, and so that's where the PCs come in.

The danger here with the 'Good' vs. 'Bad' Wizards is that you'd have to be wary of having the Istari overshadow the party.

And if you're REALLY feeling nasty, you could say that the 'Good' BW is only feigning, and is actually in league with the 'Bad' BW but is essentially a Trojan horse, meant to infiltrate the camp of the 'Wise' and betray them. That would certainly lead into the sack of Rivendell idea you thought of, but the other idea can also do that.

In any case, Celeborn and Radagast are the two biggest threats to any evil BW ploy. I don't think even a BW could fool either of them easily, and they would both have reason to be suspicious, knowing what they know about the Istari and their purpose (Radagast firsthand, Celeborn through the White Council). Any nefarious plan by the evil BW(s) would have to involve distracting/neutrilizing Celeborn and Radagast, and this would NOT be easy. In fact, if Radagast were to encounter firsthand any 'Fell Beasts' corrupted by a BW, he'd probably be able to discern a great deal about it, seeing as how beasts and plants (the provinces of Yavanna, second mightiest of the Valier Queens) are his primary sphere.

And if I was an evil Istari, I wouldn't go within leagues of Celeborn, and fooling him face to face would be a tremendous feat. Celeborn doesn't get a lot of mention in the texts, but we're talking about a kinsman of Thingol, who has lived since well before the First Age, and one who has had close association with all the mighty and Wise of Middle Earth, his Queen Galadriel far from the least amoung them, and no doubt her own power increased his (much like Melian's power increased Thingol's).

Agreed. Would they use them? I guess as creations of Morgoth it would be stupid of them not to. What other creations did he have?

Trolls, Fell Spirits bound into various forms (like Wargs, Wights, etc.). The Necromancy of the Enemy (Morgoth AND Sauron) involved coercing the Unbodied (houseless spirits of Elves, who either did not want to journey to Aman, or could not, or were prevented by the Enemy from doing so, and were corrupted by the Necromancy of the Enemy) and binding them into fell forms. Dragons (almost non-existant in the 4th Age I imagine, but probably not gone entirely).

Also, what of my shadow elves? The dwarves? The hobbits? What would you do in my place?

Hobbits and Dwarves are just fine, though perhaps a bit more reclusive as time goes on. I believe that your campaign is set in the very early 4th Age, though. After the War of the Ring, both Hobbits and Dwarves would be busy for a while. I wouldn't reduce their presence greatly, there's no reason to unless you want to. The Dwarves still have to clean out Moria, and they do. They're good for a hundreds of years at least, until the 7th and last incarnation of Durin dies and the Dwarves diminish.

I can't see any shadow elves being in ME. HOWEVER, it is certainly possible that the BWs (one or both) practice Necromancy and, following in the footsteps of Sauron, bind the Unbodied into fell forms. Since both BWs are Maiar of Orome, I suspect that they'd bind them most easily into beastly forms, a la Wargs. And it's kinda poetic: the former hunter(s) of Fell Things now having them serve as minions!

OR, it is also possible for the Unbodied to posses the bodies of others, and supress or even force the spirits of the hosts out entirely. What if one or both of the BW's made it easier for the Unbodied to do this?

Now, Elves are body, mind, and soul part and parcel and bound to Arda til the end of time. It'd be VERY, VERY hard to push the spirit of an Elf out of their body while they are yet alive.

Not so with Men. Men's souls are MADE to leave Middle Earth, and so are more weakly attached to it. Imagine fell servents of the BW(s) that consist of Fell, corrupted, Unbodied Elven spirits possessing the bodies of Men (much like the Wights were Unbodied spirits inhabiting the dead bodies of Dunedain Kings, and the Wargs were Unbodied spirits inhabiting the forms of Wolves). These could be your 'Shadow Elves', essentially Fell, Undead servants of the BW(s). You could either rule that they look just like the Men they posses, or that they corrupt their form, taking on an obviously evil and menacing appearance, maybe a half-wight/wraith, not wholly trapped in the Spirit World (as the Ringwraiths were), but in both worlds at once because they actually possess living bodies (with some help from the BW(s)). In any case, these 'Shadow' servents would almost certainly radiate Fellness and Fear.

And let's face it, peace does not mean friendship. Just because Elessar brought them to peace, doesn't mean they are jumping up and down about it a couple hundred years later. Grudges grow with time in these cases, as our own world shows.

I'm with ya.

There in lies the issue.

I have them arriving at Rivendell next session, I need to know if I sack it first or not.

Sacking it provides the harsh reality that things are up and serious. But on the down side it might be too much too soon.

Not sacking it allows me to have a place where they can gather allies and learn of things, but later I can sack it at will. The downside being they have stong allies as a result and may not feel "on their own" against the cultists.

I mean I love the idea of armies waiting just to the East and South, ready to pour into Eriador under the flag of Herumor. That is a keeper.

Don't sack Rivendell yet!! I'm completely with Ben Hur/KoR on this. That's a very dramatic idea, save it. Make it one of the most dramatic events in the story, and have it happen just when the PCs need Rivendell the most. ;-) It should be a second or third act event. Probably the finale of the Second Act (I'm using the 3 act model for this, so your 'second' act may in fact be your 4th or 5th or whatever), the lowest point of the story, when all looks grim, and just before the PCs manage to turn things around. Let the PCs take Rivendell for granted, have the depend on it and THEN sack it! *heavy metal hand gestures*

Plus with Orcs in the North and regathering in Mordor, perhaps men will need their Dwarven allies.

Just seems to me that if I involve the Dwarves I am diminishing the importance of Age of Man.

The 4th Age is the BEGINNING of the Age of Men. The remnents of the 'Old' world (Dwarves, Elves, Hobbits, Orcs, Dragons, Magic, et. al.) are in decline and will fade, but not for centuries.

Thoughts? Guidence? Suggestions? Derision? Mockery? Small velvet capes? [/B]

*digs in pockets* Nope .. no capes, sorry .. ;-)

[AslanC]

Wow. That was impressive.

So I am thinking that yeah, Alatar will be Herumor. Dolomir will be one of his guises that he wears.

I agree with you both on the later sacking of Rivendell, especially since Adunae is from there, it will provide a very solid emotional attachment for the players when their friend loses her home.

Dwarves and Hobbits can be more retreated, etc.

I was going to have Celeborn already gone to the Grey Havens at least, if not made the trip to Valinor.

Rhadaghast on the other hand was something I never even thought of.

He would make a great 2nd Act (or Book 2) addition.

I tend not to use the 3 act model since it doesn't fit with LOTR as well as Star Trek and even then classic TV used 4 acts, like larger plays. But I digress.

So basing my campaing on Books, I would add Rhadaghast in the second book, not the first.

So my first book should be them realizing something is wrong, I should end the 1st book with rivendell getting sacked, so that they need a new ally in the 2nd book, enter the Brown.

The 3rd book will be the big one, with massive armies, etc. The rally against the undoing of Arda.

Not so with Men. Men's souls are MADE to leave Middle Earth, and so are more weakly attached to it. Imagine fell servents of the BW(s) that consist of Fell, corrupted, Unbodied Elven spirits possessing the bodies of Men (much like the Wights were Unbodied spirits inhabiting the dead bodies of Dunedain Kings, and the Wargs were Unbodied spirits inhabiting the forms of Wolves). These could be your 'Shadow Elves', essentially Fell, Undead servants of the BW(s). You could either rule that they look just like the Men they posses, or that they corrupt their form, taking on an obviously evil and menacing appearance, maybe a half-wight/wraith, not wholly trapped in the Spirit World (as the Ringwraiths were), but in both worlds at once because they actually possess living bodies (with some help from the BW(s)). In any case, these 'Shadow' servents would almost certainly radiate Fellness and Fear.

So this really caught my imagination. Especially with the idea of them taking on a gloomy Elven appearance.

Hmmm.

I could use both ideas, my Eastern-Elf-Men and these Wight/Wraith elves.

[Sarge]

Before they decline, let the PCs see the hobbits and dwarves as they've always been. Then, over the course of a long-term campaign, have them show up less and less.

Or if that's too subtle, bring armies of hobbits and dwarves to a great battle, allied with men, let the enemy decimate them, and the survivors quietly return home and distance themselves from the affairs of men.

[Manveru]

I know how cool these seem, but an entire race of half-elves could only be created through coercion.

Elves married for life, because the act of marriage for them was literally a bond of body and soul. Elves could tell by the light in another Elf's eyes as to whether they were married or not.

So to imagine that Elves would wholesale breed with Men is entirely unnatural to Elves and not at all represented in the setting. Half-Elves should be VERY rare.

The only way it could happen would be for one on the scale of Sauron or greater to capture and coerce interbreeding. It would have to be an operation alike to the treachery of Saruman, but then, Saruman was a Maia of Aule, the crafter, as was Sauron, and this gave them a natural pediliction toward sub-creation.

No one can stop you ;-) but as a concept, there's little to support it and I believe it dillutes the value of a number of premises in the setting.

But it's not like you're breaking any kind of law or anything ..

[Phantom]

I could see a small increase in the birth rate of Half-Elves in the 4th Age. As most of them returned home, some of the small amount that did stay, like the Wandering Companies IMS, could marry outside the Race and their offspring would half-elven. This is not say it wouldn't still be a reare occurance, but I think it would happen a bit more then it did in previous ages.

[Manveru]

Why would an Elf choose to marry a human who will die long before they do when they could simply journey to Valinor and live forever amoung their own people?

It's possible, but I just can't see it happening on a racial level.

Also, just remember that forcing an Elf to mate would result in their death, according to Tolkien.

[AslanC]

But does this thought process count for the Avari since they never went to Valinor?

Didn't they also not see the light or something?

[Manveru]

What I was describing was for all Elves in ME. Tolkien said that the Avari who refused to go to Valinor would eventually fade away, becoming a rustic folk of glen and dale, who would probably form some of the basis for later day folk tales and legends concerning 'Fairies'.

Check this out:

http://www.ansereg.com/what_tolkien_...y_said_abo.htm

It's helpful to have an idea of what Tolkien conceived as Elven psychology. They had vastly different perspectives on life in Arda than Men did. Check this out as well:

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/86105

[AslanC]

At some point though I have to make this my game and not what i think tolkien would have done.

I understand the stuff you have been sighting, but in the end, I still have to run a game for a bunch of players who have little appreciation beyond maybe having reading the books once and having seen the movies.

Not that I don't appreciate the guidence, I do. Keep it coming