Spellcasting Vs Wizard Spellcasting

[AslanC]

Since these are the same, i don't understand why Wizard Spellcasting was added? It seems to be just a waste of picks.

Am I wrong?

Please help me figure this one out.

[ben hur]

There are actually three reasons.

1) A character may not be a Magician or Loremaster before becoming a Wizard. In this case, they'd want to be able to take Spellcasting, so the Wizard Order has it.

2) A character may be a Loremaster, and Spellcasting for Loremasters only gives them 2 Spell Picks... thus the Wizard Spellcasting gives them 5 Spell Picks for the same cost.

3) A character may have dropped the Magician or Loremaster Order, as a character can only have 2 Orders at most; in this case, they'd want Spellcasting again, so there is Wizard Spellcasting.

Hope this clears it up... my rules posts tend to be rather muddled.

[AslanC]

Actually it made perfect sense and silenced my umbrage

I didn't click into the 2 picks vs 5 picks for spells part either

[AslanC]

Okay I reread Spellcasting and Wizard Spellcasting

They both give 5 spells per pick.

Is that a mistake?

[Doug Burke]

There's actually two reasons for having both, Aslan.

1) The fact that you are limited to advancing only two orders at a time. Should one of the orders be a non-spellcasting order, you will still be able to gain one or the other of the Spellcasting abilities.

2) Prerequisites requiring Wizard Spellcasting.

[AslanC]

I understand that, it just seems weird that I HAVE to have Wizard Spellcasting and it does the exact same thing as Magician Spellcasting.

Other than as a game mechanic to eat up picks, I don't see the purpose.

But then maybe I am just thick.

It has been known to happen

[Ineti]

Originally posted by AslanC
I understand that, it just seems weird that I HAVE to have Wizard Spellcasting and it does the exact same thing as Magician Spellcasting.

Other than as a game mechanic to eat up picks, I don't see the purpose.

But, it doesn't just eat up picks. Buying Wizard Spellcasting gives you 5 spell picks to use, and is the prerequisite for all other Wizard order abilities.

Not all Wizards start off as Magicians, that's the key. A Loremaster can become a Wizard, and would have to take Wizard Spellcasting before anything else.

[AslanC]

Originally posted by Ineti
But, it doesn't just eat up picks. Buying Wizard Spellcasting gives you 5 spell picks to use, and is the prerequisite for all other Wizard order abilities.

Which is my point that it is a game induced limitation that is simply a matter of design choice by the game makers.

Not all Wizards start off as Magicians, that's the key. A Loremaster can become a Wizard, and would have to take Wizard Spellcasting before anything else.

Why not have a single ability for both Mages and Wizards, that functions like Starship Duty in the Trek rpg?

That way those who do come from Mages aren't penalized for having already bought it.

Also you can give the other Wizard abilities the simple replacement limit "Must be of the Wizard Elite Order" and you achieve the same effect.

I understand all the points being made, I just feel that Wizard Spellcasting should have had something more to it to set it aside from Mage Spellcasting. Or maybe do what was suggested earlier, make Loremasters Spellcasting give 1 spell per choice, Mage Spellcasting give 3 and Wizard give 5. Change it up a bit

Just my two gold pieces worth

[Meneltin]

Why not have a single ability for both Mages and Wizards, that functions like Starship Duty in the Trek rpg?

I like this solution, I think there should be some general abilities which can replace some of the more powerful edges.

For example, an edge like Bold gives +5 per courage point spend on physical tests, this is quite a lot for 2 advancement picks.
There are several abilities (like Battle-hardened) which also give a +5 bonus per courage point, but these are less powerful (only Siegecraft tests) but cost one pick more.

[sooth]

So just create a house rule which says that a Wizard who already has Spellcasting doesn't need to take it again as a prerequisite for other Wizard abilities.

[Ineti]

"Which is my point that it is a game induced limitation that is simply a matter of design choice by the game makers."

I'm just not understanding how you see it as a limitation. A character can take a couple advancements in Loremaster or Magician to get spells, then when they move on to the Wizard order, it would probably be a safe assumption that they'll want more spells. So before getting any of the new order abilities, they take Wizard Spellcasting and go from there.

"That way those who do come from Mages aren't penalized for having already bought it."

But I can see a spellcaster taking Spellcasting many times. There are a lot of spells, and picking this order ability once only gives you 5 picks.

"Also you can give the other Wizard abilities the simple replacement limit "Must be of the Wizard Elite Order" and you achieve the same effect."

That's already assumed. No one has access to the Wizard order abilities other than wizards.

"I understand all the points being made, I just feel that Wizard Spellcasting should have had something more to it to set it aside from Mage Spellcasting."

Why do they have to be different? The only reason Wizard has spellcasting as well is because the game has to make allowances for loremasters who want to be wizards as well as magicians who want to be wizards.

A magician becoming a wizard gets the same number of spell picks, and access to a bunch of new order abilities.

A loremaster becoming a wizard gets even more spell picks, and access to a bunch of new order abilities. In this case, the loremaster makes out a tiny bit 'better,' but it just shows how flexible the system is in making different characters and different paths for them to follow.

"Or maybe do what was suggested earlier, make Loremasters Spellcasting give 1 spell per choice, Mage Spellcasting give 3 and Wizard give 5. Change it up a bit "

Sounds like a good houserule someone could use.