Enterprise and 'continuity'

[Snake_Plissken]

I finally got to watch a few eps from season 2 and while I found the drama side to be good (good... not great like TNG or late-DS9) even I'm starting to be a little peeved by some continuity/logical errors. I have no problem if 'continuity' is bended a little to accomodate a good plot point but why violate it when there is no need to?? A few things I've noticed:

REGENRATION (the one with the Borgs)

Archer and co actually got to see the Borgs and fight them off. Why then would the existence of the Borg be a mistery to Picard and co in the 24th century? Pictures and descriptions of the Borg are available in the Earth database, as evidenced by Archer receiving those from Earth. Did they disappear later on? By Borg intervention? OTOH the bit I really liked was the Zephram Cochrane reference from First Contact. That touch sort of mellowed out the "'WTF?!' factor"

MINEFIELD (the one with the Romulans)

To paraphrase the webmaster of the Ex Astra site, why would they need to give cloaking abilities to the Romulans?? The Romulan ships and even the mines didn't have to be cloaked at all... in TOS the cloaking device was supposed to be a new invention; it was clearly depicted as being that.

Also, I found it interesting that for the first time we actually get to hear what Romulan sounds like. But wouldn't Romulan as a language be related to Vulcan? Wouldn't T'Pol have realized that something really odd was going on??

The Klingon Bird-of-Prey design

I always assumed (like FASA did) that the Klingons got the BOP design somehow due to their alliance with the Romulans in the TOS era. That makes sense, as to why those two different races use a very similar ship design (giant bird-like starships, with 'bird' designations: bird-of-prey, warbird, etc). But now with the 'early' Klingon BOP design in Enterprise what's up with that?! So there are two totally unrelated major races out there that fashion their starships like giant birds?!?!?!

Now I can understand that the writers may not want to be constrained by 'continuity', as it should not impede on good story-telling. I mean there has been a LOT of ST material over the last 30 years or so, and keeping track of it at all may be a daunting task. OTOH, there are now tools that can be used to make the job easier; there's the ST encyclopedia, the TNG and DS9 tech manuals and of course the internet- the official ST site has all of the episodes of all the series listed, with a synopsis, pictures and dramatis personae. It wouldn't be too hard to make a small list of 'continuity' issues that writers would have to respect. And the writers/producers whatever shouldn't see 'continuity' as a burden but rather as a rich tapestry to build upon. The vast history of the ST universe is one of the aspects that makes the franchise so popular to so many people; yet it seems they fail to realize this.

Oh well... I guess it's just a TV show.

[C5]

Originally posted by Snake_Plissken
Also, I found it interesting that for the first time we actually get to hear what Romulan sounds like. But wouldn't Romulan as a language be related to Vulcan? Wouldn't T'Pol have realized that something really odd was going on??

On that particular point, I'd just say that, in 2000 years, a language can vary A LOT, and that T'Pol is no linguist. Romulan and Vulcan are now probably as different from one another as, say, Latin and English. Maybe Hoshi could have noticed a similarity if she payed attention (I haven't seen the episode, so I don't know if she heard the language).

[Sea Tyger]

Snake --

On Regeneration, I didn't actually consider the Borg thing to be a major issue...personally, I'd think that the Borg thing was probably buried and highly classified very quickly, and thus disappeared from the Earth "database." That probably also included all of Cochrane's public references to the Borg.

By the 24th C., the Borg were lost to the Federation's consciousness, and the 2152 information was only uncovered well after the Enterprise's time travel episode in the 2370s.
-----------------
For Minefield, there's a distinct possibility that information from the novel The Romulan Way could have snuck in there. In the novel, the proto-Romulans are said to have deliberately changed their culture and language to make them distinct from their Vulcan roots...in essence, shedding the culture they left behind to forge their own path in the galaxy.

Also, the "Awakening" was as much as six milennia ago by some accounts (I don't know what the current official "Time of Surak" is now). That's roughly 250 generations (going with a generation every 20-25 years, as opposed to the standard 10 years for humans). English didn't even exist as a language 2,500 years ago, and I don't think any of the early Celtic/Gaulish tribes from the rise of Rome would even realize that English is even related to their language.

Just some counter thoughts there. I won't touch the Klingon BOP thing....

[Evan van Eyk]

Originally posted by Snake_Plissken

REGENRATION (the one with the Borgs)

Did they disappear later on?

Probably Section 31

MINEFIELD (the one with the Romulans)
Also, I found it interesting that for the first time we actually get to hear what Romulan sounds like. But wouldn't Romulan as a language be related to Vulcan? Wouldn't T'Pol have realized that something really odd was going on??

Nope it would not. In the episode when Romulus tries the invasion of Vulcan, Spock explains that Romulan language is now very different from Vulcan, I think it is even forbidden. The Romulans use e.g. completely different letters.

The Klingon Bird-of-Prey design

I always assumed (like FASA did) that the Klingons got the BOP design somehow due to their alliance with the Romulans in the TOS era. That makes sense, as to why those two different races use a very similar ship design (giant bird-like starships, with 'bird' designations: bird-of-prey, warbird, etc). But now with the 'early' Klingon BOP design in Enterprise what's up with that?! So there are two totally unrelated major races out there that fashion their starships like giant birds?!?!?!

As far as I remember the Klingons gave the Romulans their ship designs, along with the warp drive in exchange for the cloaking devices.
On the other hand maybe the producers wantd to prevent fans wondering why Klingon ships look so different. But if I remember correct we see a completely new design in "Bounty".

[Steele1701]

The monastary at P'Jem was said to have been founded 3,000 years ago, so it is possible that the awakening happened before that. As far as the language, my grandfather doesn't always understand what my 10 year old son is talking about so if there is that much of a difference in language(slang) just in the years between them imagine what 3,000 years would do to a language.

[Phantom]

"Regeneration"

Asked myself that same question. Hated the ep.

"Minefield"

Never really thought of that. My point of contention in that ep was their ships looking way more modern then the BoP from TOS, when the BoP would have been the more modern ship design. Liked the ep, would have liked it better if they did the split story line they used in "Balance of Terror."

Klingon Bop: ::shrug:: I got sick of things Klingon way before the end of TNG, so I ignore them when they show up now.

[Snake_Plissken]

Probably Section 31

You know seriously that would make sense. Sloan (was that his name?) told Bashir that S31 had been in place for a long time. And anyways it would 'fit' in nicely.

The Romulans use e.g. completely different letters.

I'm not sure about that one but I think whoever came up with the Romulan language graphics for TNG once said that he tried to keep a similarity link with the Vulcan written language... the question then would be which one (!!!). As far as I know, there are 2 kinds of Vulcan written language: the lettering seen on the Surak shuttle in ST:TMP and the TNG Vulcan "musical" language (the one that looks like vertical notes and bars and what-have-you).

As far as I remember the Klingons gave the Romulans their ship designs, along with the warp drive in exchange for the cloaking devices.

That's a widely used, albeit, non-canon theory- which happens to make a lot of sense IMVHO. In order to give to the Klingons cloaking technology the Romulans would have to receive something quite significant in return; something quite substential like warp technology. The FASA version of the deal was that the Klingons got several cloaking devices and plasma torpedoes, while the Romulans obtained D-7 cruisers to bolster their fleets, and also photon torpedo technology. The movie-era FASA Romulan designs started to use more photon torpedoes and the designs got structurally bigger (= stronger).

But in this case I was talking about the Enterprise "early Klingon Bird-of-Prey"; it looks like a direct ancestor to the B'Rel/K'Vort Klingon BOP designs. The reason why today we even have a "Klingon Bird-of-Prey" is because of ST3. In the first draft of the movie the baddies were supposed to have been Romulans. As you all know the Romulans on TOS had their ships called "Bird-of-Preys", shaped like a giant bird and with feather patterns. So an updated version of the ship was mentionned in the script. Then the producers (Leonard Nimoy included) decided that the Klingons would make more effective vilains. The script was changed again and it featured a scene where a group of Klingons stole a BOP from the Romulans. Then that bit was scrapped and therefore without explanation we suddenly got Klingon BOPs with cloaking devices.

I've heard somewhere (I don't know if it was true) that the Klingon-Romulan alliance in TOS was created when a staff member accidentally broke the Romulan BOP model (!) and so they had to use the Klingon D-7s. The Romulans in that episode also sported Klingon hand weapons.

anyway, here's what the ENT Klingon BOP looks like :

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/sc...ngon_ships.htm

English didn't even exist as a language 2,500 years ago, and I don't think any of the early Celtic/Gaulish tribes from the rise of Rome would even realize that English is even related to their language.

Interesting. Unless I'm mistaken English is a combination of old French and some Germanic language (Saxon?). The 'old French' part comes from the Normand conquest of England on 1066. Old French comes from Latin which uses a lot of old Greek words. So still there is a patern somewhere. It would be a logical assumption (pun intended, yeah!) that the Vulcan and Romulan languages are still somewhat related. Well, going back to 'Minefield' I thought up 2 hypothese: 1- The Vulcans (T'Pol included) actually know far more about the Romulans than they are willing to let outsiders know- perhaps they are shameful that 'familiy members' are still openly embracing emotions - or 2- that the Vulcans geniunly do not know about the Romulans and that the later are very paranoid about revealing their true nature, especially to the Vulcans; to the point of gradually altering their language as to be undistinguishable from Vulcan. OTOH I've always found that there were a lot of similarity between the Vulcan and Romulan names we've been able to hear through TNG and on.

As a side note, when I heard Romulan being spoken in the episode I was very surprised because somehow that was pretty much how I always thought it would sound like.

And finally there was one other 'continuity' issue (well kind of) that I thought was odd and that is the appearance of photon torpedoes. The TNG tech manual says that the device was invented in the early 23rd century. I can't recall if that was ever said on screen and I know that the tech manuals, even though they are offcially sanctionned by Paramount and written by folks who work on the shows, are not strictly speaking 'canon'. But again the writer could have been more careful here- there was no need to make the new weapons 'photon torpedoes'. They could have come up with something new without having to do that. I dunno, something like 'neutron torpedo' or something (!)

[Snake_Plissken]

My point of contention in that ep was their ships looking way more modern then the BoP from TOS, when the BoP would have been the more modern ship design.

That one I hear often at work from the casual sci-fi fan. That is one of the main criticisms I keep hearing about Enterprise- how more 'modern' the show looks like compared to TOS. The ONLY way the producers could have avoided that issue would have been to make the ship, the crew and the overall techonology 1950's or 1930's- like, or whatever (earlier?). You know, making it look like a sci-fi TV show (or movie in the case of the 30's) that would have been made back then. While that kind of idea may work for some projects (usually movies or the odd episode like the B&W one on Voyager) I don't think it would have been a very popular option for a series like ENT. What else then were they supposed to do? If the effects and the tech of TOS in the 60's look corny, and if ENT is supposed to have much older tech and equipment, then would they have to be cornier?

For the record I think they did an amazing job with the ENT-era BOP.

[Eric R.]

Here is a link to a thread with some thoughts I had on Regeneration after it first appeared in May.

http://forum.trek-rpg.net/showthread...&threadid=7724

[D.S.McBride]

I recall reading, a number of years ago, in Star Trek 1 (the James Blish book, not the movie) that, after getting a look at the Romulan Commander, Spock says the Romulan and Vulcan languages bear about as much similarity to each other as modern English and ancient Greek - there are common roots there, yes, but the divergence is so marked that it would take a linguistic specialist (and here comes Hoshi) to puzzle it out.

This little bit that Mr. Blish - presumably - threw in has stayed with me over the years as a very good explanation for not only the Romulan/Vulcan language question, but the Romulan culture as a whole: while they've definitely got their contiguous roots with Vulcan society - again, just as we can trace many of our democratic traditions back to the Athenian model, although persons of that day would likely have fainted in horror if they saw whom we allow the vote to - the Vulcan/Romulan branchings have reached the stage where they have become points of sociological curiosity rather than areas of commonality between two peoples.

[Phantom]

Originally posted by Snake_Plissken
That one I hear often at work from the casual sci-fi fan. That is one of the main criticisms I keep hearing about Enterprise- how more 'modern' the show looks like compared to TOS. The ONLY way the producers could have avoided that issue would have been to make the ship, the crew and the overall techonology 1950's or 1930's- like, or whatever (earlier?). You know, making it look like a sci-fi TV show (or movie in the case of the 30's) that would have been made back then. While that kind of idea may work for some projects (usually movies or the odd episode like the B&W one on Voyager) I don't think it would have been a very popular option for a series like ENT. What else then were they supposed to do? If the effects and the tech of TOS in the 60's look corny, and if ENT is supposed to have much older tech and equipment, then would they have to be cornier?

For the record I think they did an amazing job with the ENT-era BOP.

Sorry they could have done it without the retro grade tech you are talking about. The Romulan ships in the Ent ep were too graceful, a TNG trait, all they had to was make them less so. Upgrade the old design would have been a good idea if they wanted to go for new look. Changing one or two design components would have made a fine looking ship that fit into the era.

[Evan van Eyk]

Originally posted by Snake_Plissken


I'm not sure about that one but I think whoever came up with the Romulan language graphics for TNG once said that he tried to keep a similarity link with the Vulcan written language... the question then would be which one (!!!).

Maybe, but in the episode I spoke of, one of the dissidents shows him some tow blocks of him, made of wood, I tihnk, with painted on Vulcan letters - which he said were different from Romulans.
There are probably roots, but as both people actually hate each other, I think they hide them well. And Hoshi just had a few sentences to see any familiarities, which is I think not enough.

Originally posted by Snake_Plissken

But in this case I was talking about the Enterprise "early Klingon Bird-of-Prey"; it looks like a .... bit was scrapped and therefore without explanation we suddenly got Klingon BOPs with cloaking devices.

that is interesting, I was not aware of that.

[Snake_Plissken]

The Romulan ships in the Ent ep were too graceful, a TNG trait, all they had to was make them less so.

I beg to differ; big time. Honestly that doesn't make a lot of sense. Could you picture the producers telling the designer "ok, we need a new Romulan BOP; it has to look like the old TOS one.., but make it less "graceful", you know, more crappy-looking... something angular and boxy...why don't you use the flap of a toilet seat, stick 2 pens on the sides for warp nacelles and there! we'll have our old BOP"... I don't tune into ENT every week to look at crappy-looking production designs. I don't get it- because the old ROM BOP from TOS looked cheap (it did) then by the same train of logic a parent design which is supposed to be much older would have to look even cheaper.

Admit it Phantom, if it weren't for ENT, being the ROM fan you are you'd LOVE the 'new' ROM BOP design!

Upgrade the old design would have been a good idea if they wanted to go for new look.

That's exactly what they did!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Evan van Eyk]

Additionally design is no liniar thing. You can have a sleek model first, a crappy one alter and then again a more sleeker one. Just take a look at different car models, at least here in europe we again get more "edges" on our cars. The later half of the 90s saw many "round" cars, with no edges at all, before that however the cars were very much less round.

And I do not think that design aspects should be regarded in continuity when the series' are 40 years apart. It would be just warming uop the old Klingon-Look question, which leads nowhere.

[Phantom]

Originally posted by Snake_Plissken
I beg to differ; big time. Honestly that doesn't make a lot of sense. Could you picture the producers telling the designer "ok, we need a new Romulan BOP; it has to look like the old TOS one.., but make it less "graceful", you know, more crappy-looking... something angular and boxy...why don't you use the flap of a toilet seat, stick 2 pens on the sides for warp nacelles and there! we'll have our old BOP"... I don't tune into ENT every week to look at crappy-looking production designs. I don't get it- because the old ROM BOP from TOS looked cheap (it did) then by the same train of logic a parent design which is supposed to be much older would have to look even cheaper.

Admit it Phantom, if it weren't for ENT, being the ROM fan you are you'd LOVE the 'new' ROM BOP design!



That's exactly what they did!!!!!!!!!!!!

And I beg to differ with you. I am no designer by any means but I did a design that would have fit in the time line based on the old BP design. I certainly don't think it looks "crappy" by any means. So, if I can do it I think a professional artist could pull it off. The ships in "Minefield" looked like one of the old FASA designs, not that I don't like FASA designs it is the one they used looked way to modern.

Yes, I do like the new design. If it were in a new context, not showing the typical flip flop system of progression B&B are using in Ent. That being nice new shiney toys in a pre-fed setting, followed by "crappy" designs in the beginning of the Fed setting, followed by nice new toys in the Late Fed setting. What? Did the Feds suffer a dark age? Must have as that is the only way to explain the what has come out of Ent thus far.