Well, according to UPN, it's now Trek...

[Modem]

You're going to take advice from a guy (be it a fictional one), who wouldn't even CONSIDER leaving an EXPERIMENTAL, never BATTLE-TESTED BATTLESTATION?!?!?!

And futher more, LOOK WHAT HAPPENED TO HIM .

And L.N.B., I do agree it's just a show...but; (going into his best Scottish) It's no' 'Starrr Trek'. (/accent) And I stated before, They can call it anything they want, do anything they want (and are doing just that)...it's NOT Trek, and I'm NOT watching. (To barrow a line from Beavis and Butthead: "No matter how hard you try, you just can't polish a turd.")

Oh, and Space Phantom I dissagree; the diva finished her song, walked off stage, changed clothes, left the building and is DRIVING HOME...

('Dennis Miller' mode engaged, and moved to maximum)
I also dissagree with your argument of 'the removal of Ent. would be a detriment to the franchise'...
ok, no; If Ent. were cancelled, 'They' were fired, and Paramount came forward and issued an applogy (say; full page in verious newspapers and magazines) stating that, Ent. is NOT continuity, and 'Star Trek is being re-tooled with a better group of talent...' wouldn't that peak the interest of you...not to mention John and Joan Q. Public? I'd say Paramount could turn things around if they did this, during a 'brake' of three to five years.

Let novels and games continue to be published (esp. 'Strange New Worlds' and, of course Decipher's stuff), and either:
(a) re-hire people that understood 'Trek': Ira Behr, Ron Moore (Mr. DS9, that is), Pillar, and others...
(b) hire 'new blood' that have worked with 'Trek' if only in novels: the Reeves-Stevens , Peter David, Michael Jan Friedman, Diane Duane and others...or
(c) combine a and b
But in any format, 'think tank' it for at least a couple of years BEFORE things get started (a.k.a.: avoid a 'rushed job'). Long-term it, test actors and actresses, get demogaphics (from both fans, the person on the street, and even online...and more than ONE AGE BRACKET)

Movie-wise; hire a DIRECTOR...Steven Spielberg, Tim Burton, Jerry Bruckheimer...somebody, HELL even Quentin Tarantino, or Kevin Smith. Or better still, find one of these people, and have them WATCH 'Trek'; verious Episodes, verious series (esp. the good ones), to get a 'feel' for what should be done (and figure a balance between seriousness [or 'the message'] and the fun [or 'the Disscovery']).

My opinion, your milage may vary (and, of course "...I could be wrong": Dennis Miller)

[Space_Cadet]

Originally posted by Modem
......
I also dissagree with your argument of 'the removal of Ent. would be a detriment to the franchise'...
ok, no; If Ent. were cancelled, 'They' were fired, and Paramount came forward and issued an applogy (say; full page in verious newspapers and magazines) stating that, Ent. is NOT continuity, and 'Star Trek is being re-tooled with a better group of talent...' wouldn't that peak the interest of you...not to mention John and Joan Q. Public? I'd say Paramount could turn things around if they did this, during a 'brake' of three to five years.

Let novels and games continue to be published (esp. 'Strange New Worlds' and, of course Decipher's stuff), and either:
(a) re-hire people that understood 'Trek': Ira Behr, Ron Moore (Mr. DS9, that is), Pillar, and others...
(b) hire 'new blood' that have worked with 'Trek' if only in novels: the Reeves-Stevens , Peter David, Michael Jan Friedman, Diane Duane and others...or
(c) combine a and b
But in any format, 'think tank' it for at least a couple of years BEFORE things get started (a.k.a.: avoid a 'rushed job'). Long-term it, test actors and actresses, get demogaphics (from both fans, the person on the street, and even online...and more than ONE AGE BRACKET)

Paramout issuing an apology... that's not very realistic. oh and pillar?? Didn't that guy write Insurrection? Anyhow, i don't think of any of those DS9 writers will come back(highly doubt that star trek will give them a chance to win an emmy or oscar). I'm pretty sure they would want to move on to new venues. But like i said before if Enterprise is cancelled then Trek has finally seen its end...and no DS9 movie..lol

Movie-wise; hire a DIRECTOR...Steven Spielberg, Tim Burton, Jerry Bruckheimer...somebody, HELL even Quentin Tarantino, or Kevin Smith. Or better still, find one of these people, and have them WATCH 'Trek'; verious Episodes, verious series (esp. the good ones), to get a 'feel' for what should be done (and figure a balance between seriousness [or 'the message'] and the fun [or 'the Disscovery']).

My opinion, your milage may vary (and, of course "...I could be wrong": Dennis Miller)

What makes you think that Speilberg or Burton or Bruchheimer would want to touch Star Trek???? I always hear folks saying that all the time and i'm like you gotta be realistic. As much as we like and care about the franchise, i highly doubt they would want to do Star Trek. Speilberg would probably want to do Star Wars than Star Trek. Let's face it.. Unlike Star Wars (cash cow), Star Trek is not mainstream, not like it was back with TNG.

[Liz Not Beth]

This message has been removed on request by the
poster

[JonA]

Originally posted by Liz Not Beth
Not going to smite anyone over this, yet.

But, serious! GIVE IT A REST. If it bothers you so bad QUIT WATCHING AND MOVE ALONG!

You don't need to bring it up every day/week/post.

If you won't I will.

I'm, admittedly, just as guilty as the rest. But Liz's point is bloody valid. This is going the way of the old Federation Marines debate.

So since I can't SMITE I have my own version

STOMP!

[Liz Not Beth]

This message has been removed on request by the
poster

[Modem]

Gene was adamant about there NOT being an army of ANY KIND in Starfleet (hell, it was one of the very things that cost FASA their 'Trek' game), and even winced when Col. West appeared...isn't IRONIC that 'They' skipped that to create another group with an M-WORD...B&B didn't invent the 'hose-job', but they are ARE perfecting it...

Sorry if this goes against the attempt at 'peace' but I just find this stupid as a whole; 'renaming' the show (trying to get the fans back, who've basically said "to HELL with THIS"), adding more than one cast member (proving that the cast 'they' have are boring, but they DARE NOT FIRE ANYBODY), and the rest of the 'nine yards'.

I just think that 'they' can't admit that 'they' don't know what 'they're doing anymore, and that the 'high water' mark was Next Gen./DS9...after that beganeth the tailspin...courtesy of 'them'

[General Chang]

Say no more, I shall. Terrifying enough, the SMITE was. Face the STOMP, I wish not. If to the darkside the path is fear, then like the ace of spades colored I should be. Like a sissy girl will I run to my mudhole slimy. Crawl back into my hovel's bed I shall. Like the ground upon which AT-AT's stride, shall I tremble.



AGHHHHHH! Waiiit......

What am I the hell saying?!


Summon the powers of the Force, and the Bene Gesserit I shall.

"Fear, I must not! There is no emotion; there is peace. The killer of minds, fear is! There is no ignorance; there is knowledge. The little death, fear is, which total annihilation it brings! There is no passion; there is serenity. Now, face my fear I will! There is no death; there is only The Force. Permit it to pass over me, and through me, I will! When passed the fear is, turn the Inner Eye I will, to upon the path gaze! When gone the fear is, nothing shall there be! Remain the only one, I will!"


HAAAA! Like my old self, do I feel!

This YODA'ism was brought to you by,
General Chang

[JonA]

Originally posted by General Chang
Say no more, I shall. Terrifying enough, the SMITE was. Face the STOMP, I wish not.

HEY LIZ!!!! IT WORKED!!!!!!!!

The padawan takes over from the mistress!!!!!!

[The Midnighter]

Originally posted by General Chang
It is NOT Anti-prise.... It IS Enterprise. And now...Star Trek: Enterprise.

I have seen plenty of Star Trek elements in the show to justify it being called Star Trek.

TOS had no sense of continuity whatsoever. Why should we bitch about Enterprise? Someone had posted these sentiments before, and I feel it appropriate to echo them. TOS had the sexy scenes (as racy as possible for 60's fare), the lack of continuity, and the inconsistencies galore. It wasn't until a couple of story arcs in TNG, and the ongoing stories of DS9 and VOY that continuity became a consideration.

The primary problem is that there are so many camps of Star Trek fans.

We have the following:

1. The Gene Roddenberry Utopia Spewing types who continually profess that Starfleet is NOT a military organization, and that we even today live in a politically correct world. This world is FAR from politically correct. (And don't even get me started on the despicable folly of PC.)

2. The Continuity hounds who entertain the notion that every single story in Star Trek is connected somehow, and that if someone makes a deviation, then their world's end is nigh. Again, I direct them to the unchained universe of The Old Show...oops..I mean The Original Series.

3. The Action hounds like myself who KNOW that Starfleet is the MILITARY in the Star Trek Universe. We like some gunfights, fistfights, and epic space battles to go with our stories of exploration and the human condition.

4. The Plothole miners, whose sole purpose seems to be to find any plothole at all in a Trek film (except for the Wrath of Khan, which they hypocritically overlook because it was such an excellent film.) Yes, there are some plotholes that do jump out of some of the Trek films...but I've always felt that the True Trek fan can fill in the plotholes for his/herself, if they are well versed in Trek lore. (The only Trek movie that truly defies any convention of justification is The Final Frontier.) After all, if it can be accepted that Chekov was in the Enterprise's bathroom when Khan was on board in Space Seed (TOS) thus explaining how Khan in the movie so vividly remembered someone that wasn't even on the damned show at the time, surely it could be accepted that the Romulan Spy/Vulcan Ambassador in Data's Day (TNG) was the one who provided the Romulan's with Picard's DNA for NEMESIS.

5. The Techies who love every technical aspect of Star Trek. They can quote to you just how many megawatts a Type X phaser on a Galaxy Class Starship can put out, or the exact process of teleportation, or exactly how an EPS tap runs on a Defiant class WARSHIP!

6. You have the "cover it up" camp. By that, I mean the folks who seem to think that catsuits are too sexy for the show, and that they tend to exploit the beautiful women wearing them. Oh, my, how they seem to forget that the chicks in The Old Show wore far, far, less than the contemporary Chicks o' Trek. These less than happy campers are the ones who absolutely refuse to look beyond the uniform and the outer beauty to recognize that these characters are EMPOWERED, CAPABLE, and INDEPENDENT
women in the Trek Universe.

7. Then there is the camp that just enjoys Trek for what it is...a good science fiction romp consisting of any number of story possibilities. We do not concern ourselves with "Is it Trek?" because the stories at their heart are Trek. We also understand that the writers of these shows have nearly 40 years of storytelling to try and avoid repeating in some form or another. We love the eye candy, because we can see beyond it. We watch a movie the first couple of times, enjoy it, then worry about the plotholes later.

Now, look at this list, and you will discover, VOILLA, there are too many camps of Trek fans to try and satisfy. If you satisfy one camp, you offend one or more others. That is the dilemma that the Trek writers face every friggin' day, and it's all because people want to cry foul about CONTINUITY, or SEXISM, or PLOTHOLES big enough to fly V'ger through. Also, if you look at this list, you will see that each group probably considers themselves TRUE Trek fans. Kinda like asking what the one TRUE Religion is? Ya' can't answer it without pissing someone else off. That is the saddened state that Trek fandom finds itself in. It seems like no one camp is willing to acknowledge the other's right to TRUE Trek fandom. The bottom line is: WE ARE ALL TRUE TREK FANS, regardless of which aspect of Trek we hold dear.

If you wanna see sci-fi fans in a serious TIZZY, goto Sci-fi.com and check out the Battlestar Galactica Boards.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ENTER INFURIATED RANT MODE:
Lemme line it out this way, people. WE DON'T WRITE THE FRIGGIN' STORIES! We are not the ones who have to go up against 40 years of backstory to avoid repeating! If we did, then Trek fandom would be in SERIOUS F***ING TROUBLE, because some camp is gonna get overlooked in our self-righteous Holy War to preserve or decry what another camp thinks is TREK!
All we do is bitch and moan about CONTINUITY, SEXISM, and PLOTHOLES, and completely show no appreciation for the people who are trying to entertain us!
F*** SEXISM!
F*** PLOTHOLES!
F*** CONTINUITY!
F*** POLITICAL CORRECTNESS!
And LONG LIVE STAR TREK!

EXIT INFURIATED RANT MODE:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is most unfortunate that Science Fiction in general is starting to become passe. Now, it's the Fantasy genre that seems to be taking over hearts and minds. Lord of the Rings? Ptui! Harry Potter? ROCK ON!

But anyhoo...Star Trek is Star Trek, regardless of the show. Whether it's The Old Show, or The Next Generation, or Deep Space Nine, or Voyager, or Enterprise, or The Motion Picture, The Wrath of Khan, The Search for Spock, Save The Whales, Search for God, The Undiscovered Country, Generations, First Contact, Insurrection, or NEMESIS. All the elements are there:

1. Starfleet/Federation
2. The Human Adventure
3. Action, Drama, Comedy, Sexual Tension
4. Romulans
5. Technobabble
6. Roddenberry's legacy
7. Exploration
8. Klingons

Now, I don't know about the rest of you, but to me that seems to spell out STAR TREK.

Boot enoof o' mah rantin'. Ken ah' get an amen from m'clansmen?




Respectfully,
General Chang

AMEN, BROTHER CHANG, A-FREAKING-MEN! KAI KASSAI CHANG!

Thank God! Thank God there is yet another soul out there who feels the same way I do!

Kahless bless you and yours, Chang!

The sooner everyone quits their complaining and kvetching over whatever problems they choose to see in Enterprise, the happier we'll all be!

If they could all just sit and watch the story instead of sitting there and going "well, this is wrong..." and "that's not right...", they'd realize they'd been wasting time.

Like it or not, Enterprise IS just as Trek as the others.

Flame me all you want as well, but I -- as well as Chang -- speak the truth.

[General Chang]

Thank You, Midnighter! Maj'Qa!

Glory to you, and your House! jI'yajNeS! gijQeD chaD NIjaj!

I see by one of your thl'ngan expressions that you've some FASA influence in you. Ah.....the good ol' days of FASA Trek. A couple friends and I used to play heavily in the Starship Combat game. I had the most awesome Klingon fleet...once upon a time.

Now, to other important matters. Midnighter, I suggest we make like the wind and break because I am sure that we are about to be smote and stomped by the IBG and her padawan.

Respectfully,
General Chang, Right Reverend of the House of "I Love Trek, Period!"

[Liz Not Beth]

This message has been removed on request by the
poster

[prophetsteve]

TOS had no sense of continuity whatsoever.

Heck, Trek never has had strong continuity at any time.

Inconsistancies with Trek history were rampant long before Voyager and Enterprise came along; they just continued the trend.

DS9 had its own version of Early 21 century history, TNG and TOS another. Eugenics Wars were a part of TOS history only to be given lipservice in DS9 (mostly in regards to Bashir) and almost ignored in TNG and Voyager. WWIII? Depended in which series' timetravel episodes you consulted or comments made onscreen. It really wasn't until First Contact that Trek seemed to try and solidfy the whole WWIII issue.

And lets not forget the Borg - which we all thought was discovered by Enterprise-D...that is until Voyager introduced the Hansons and the their federation sanctioned study of the Borg. Which came first? Hansons or the Enterprise-D? The waters are muddied a bit there long before the Borg showed up on Enterprise. Anyway, First Contact set that one up and although the episode was rather lame, i could see at least the premise was plausable.

That is not to say I agree with chucking continuity out the window. I mean, I love continuity. I would like to see the writers work within the framework of what has gone before. But if there is a gaff, here and there, so be it.

I still don't want to see anymore Ferengi on Enterprise. But if a few TNG races show up now and then and don't completely contractict some solid fact (not just conjecture and hearsay) i'll figure out a way of rationalizing. I mean, since Star Trek III that has to be a Trek tradition...

[Trinity Zeldis]

Okay, as I have said before, I don't watch the show. Just don't tell me it's Star Trek.

When you start a show by saying everything that has come before or was said before is wrong or lies....

Anyway, slapping the franchise label on it doesn't make it Trek anymore than me holding a flashlight makes me a Jedi.

[Dan Stack]

I do watch Enterprise. And I think I've been watching Trek shows in their various incarnations since the early-70's when mommy-Stack placed her little toddler Daniel in front of the tv to watch Star Trek.

Enterprise is Star Trek. Whether it is good or not is in the eye of the beholder. Me personally, I probably give it a C+/B- of late.

By the way, a lightsaber does not make a Jedi. So holding a flashlight vs. a lightsaber makes no difference in determining one's knighthood.

[Modem]

Let me ask you all this:
Was the animated series canon?
Was the animated series even considered 'Trek'?

In the first question, no; which is reeeeally funny when the series was NAMED 'Star Trek'. No Ent. is canon...for now, but I've got this funny feeling that if it can't deliver this year (and those number still need to be higher), it will more than likely be gone.

Hey, if you had a swimming pool; drained a third to half the water out. Next day did the same, and then began to do it again THE NEXT DAY; soon you couldn't use the diving board...same thing here.

Paramount/Viacom/UPN soon will not be able to justify "why is this show on the air???" and *poof* there it goes...

Not since the ORIGINAL SERIES (THE 'ORIGINAL SERIES') has there been a need for people to organize, just to keep the show on the air...that's a dubious distinction don't ya' think, and NOT a good one.