Well, according to UPN, it's now Trek...

[First of Two]

Actually, if you research the case, the lady that sued McDonald's because her coffee temperature was WAY over the reccommended temperature, enough to cause THIRD DEGREE BURNS, and McDonald's had been warned by the courts about it in the past, and did NOTHING, had a legitimate case.

And she didn't end up getting a million, either.

But other than that, right on.

[Space_Cadet]

Originally posted by Ramage
......The best thing we could do for Trek right now is to pull Enterprise, not make any more movies, and let it fade away for about 5-10 years and then, and only then, attempt a new series.

......

IMHO It is pretty naive to think that pulling Enterprise will help the franchise or giving Trek vow of silence for 5-10 years so that a newer resurgence will give it life again in form of a movie or show (May i also add that it is a different time and circumstance now compared to the 70s). Pulling Enterpise off will allude that it is no longer a 'profitable' franchise and chances for any incarnation of trek will be slim. No Enterpise means no DS9/TNG/Voy movie, no Starfeet Acadmey 90210, no Klingon series, no Sulu series, no beaten to death 24th century series, or whatever that has Star Trek prefixed it.

[qerlin]

Originally posted by Scarecrow
...sowhy do we continually tolerate the use of women as mere ratings-pulling, eye-candy?

'cause some of us like chicks? 'cvause it works for the ratings?

I've noticed the continual bitching about the occasional skin on the show. Since they show off some of the male characters regularly, as well, I don't have a problem with it. Come to think of it, I wouldn't anyway.

When did all the trek fans get such a puritanical streak. "An, Lieutenant Jedediah, I see you're wearing your woolen underwear again. Good! Discomfort is good for the soul..."

[Liz Not Beth]

This message has been removed on request by the
poster

[REG]

Originally posted by Rayaru

Uhhh.... I'm a pretty long-time fan and I consider it Trek... speak for your self, please.

Don't worry, I'm not speaking for you.

I tried to give Braga a chance to impress me, but like the latter part of VOYAGER I feel no sense of familiarity nor connection with this show that I have with previous namesakes. To me, it is simply NOT there. Why do you think I FORCED myself to think this is a parallel universe? It is the ONLY way I can tolerate viewing the episodes, albeit with eye winces.

You're going to have to learn to take my opinion for what it is, and agree to disagree, Rayaru, Greg Davis, and General Chang. I can forgive TOS because it is the FIRST Trek series to launch this popular franchise (despite Gene's deliberate sabotage of the third season in response to NBC's programming decision), with later series establishing the continuity, thanks in part by Rick Sternbach and Mike Okuda (as well as writers who have kept to the bible in TNG and DS9).

I could forgive ENTERPRISE if it was the first TV series to be produced, but not as the fourth.

[StyroFoam Man]

This message has been removed on request by the
poster

[Phantom]

Originally posted by First of Two
Actually, if you research the case, the lady that sued McDonald's because her coffee temperature was WAY over the reccommended temperature, enough to cause THIRD DEGREE BURNS, and McDonald's had been warned by the courts about it in the past, and did NOTHING, had a legitimate case.

And she didn't end up getting a million, either.

But other than that, right on.

Ok, this way off topic, but I just want say:

That is a load of horse crap!

I have a friend who is a manger of a McDonald's and he said that that there is no way the coffee was that hot. McD's coffee isn't any hotter then what you make yourself in the morning. This case is nothing more then some idiotic floppsy trying to make a buck at the expense of others.

Rant off, back to your regularly scheduled discussion.

You know I find this interesting. Two years ago I was the one of those who said this series was going to suck, and now I find myself almost liking it. And those that told me to give it a chance are now the ones saying it sucks. My how things can change.

[Dan Stack]

Originally posted by First of Two
Actually, if you research the case, the lady that sued McDonald's because her coffee temperature was WAY over the reccommended temperature, enough to cause THIRD DEGREE BURNS, and McDonald's had been warned by the courts about it in the past, and did NOTHING, had a legitimate case.

In case anyone wants further details (though take discussion of this to the General Forum)... http://www.lectlaw.com/files/cur78.htm

[Space_Cadet]

Originally posted by Phantom
.......

You know I find this interesting. Two years ago I was the one of those who said this series was going to suck, and now I find myself almost liking it. .....

I can relate.. i said the same when i saw the Rod Stewart intro during one of their first season shows before turning it off, and after seeing the "Expanse" and then catching up with reruns with "Regeneration" and "Cogenitor".. i became a believer

*Looking forward to getting a glimpse of the Earth-Romulan war*

[Trinity Zeldis]

Excuse me Chang, but you forgot something.

In your list of criteria, you mention Romulans and Klingons. What about the episodes that didn't have these two items?


And as for Roddenberry's legacy? Please. You could say the same for Rog Blake as you can for Anti-prise (Anti, insinuating it is equal, but opposite, much like antimatter).

So, Avon, get your butt up to the bridge, we have a computer to hack.

Villa, get down there and pick that lock.

Orac, what are the odds of that other shows success to the thirteen millionth decimal place.

Zen, plot course for Indiri Prime.

And if anyone sees Servalan, I'll be in my quarters.

[Phantom]

Originally posted by Trinity Zeldis

So, Avon, get your butt up to the bridge, we have a computer to hack.

Villa, get down there and pick that lock.

Orac, what are the odds of that other shows success to the thirteen millionth decimal place.

Zen, plot course for Indiri Prime.

And if anyone sees Servalan, I'll be in my quarters.

Ok, WHAT???

Is this some Blake's 7 reference?

[Scarecrow]

Originally posted by Liz Not Beth
Problem is the vast majority of fans are red-blooded males and they respond things like that.

Which is entirely the reason shows like trek resort to such shallow marketing ploys but sadly, also means that women will never be taken seriously by Hollywood and will continue to play second fiddle to their male counterparts, earning less, having less opportunities and being discarded as soon as they are no longer considered attractive enough.

With regards to Chang's post. The people who make the biggest fuss about political correctness are generally white, middle-class males because racism and sexism does not affect them one iota, and as such they can't see what the fuss is all about. I am a white, middle-class male and I believe that that some laws and policies have gone too far. However, I am also of the opinion that too much racism and sexism goes on under our very noses, so subtly that we don't notice it, but still with great effect, soaking into the collective unconciousness, making it acceptable. Television is still one of the biggest proponents of perpetuating social myths and damaging egalatarianism, especially when it comes to portraying women and their roles in society.

The society portrayed in Star Trek has long professed to have grown beyond shallow, twentieth century thinking. It claims that all people of all races and sexes are totally equal. I think the show should reflect that thinking.

The original series was one of the worst proponents of sexism. No more so than most other TV series on at the time. Even the one main female character in the show got to do little more than open hailing frequencies. However at the height of the cold war they had a Russian on the bridge!
Enterprise does have a strong female character in the shape of Hoshi and despite being entirely there as eye candy, T'Pol has had her moments so I don't think the show is entirely failing in it's portrayal of women but could anyone imagine having a middle-eastern character on the bridge at the moment? I think it's unlikely. Which is a shame.

Crow

[General Chang]

Originally posted by: Trinity Zeldis.

**Excuse me Chang, but you forgot something.

In your list of criteria, you mention Romulans and Klingons. What about the episodes that didn't have these two items?**

Response: LOL! Well, I never said "every" episode had them.




Originally posted by: Trinity Zeldis.

**And as for Roddenberry's legacy? Please. You could say the same for Rog Blake as you can for Anti-prise (Anti, insinuating it is equal, but opposite, much like antimatter).**

Response: Ah, well, when you put it that way...yousa point is well seen.




Originally posted by: Scarecrow.

**With regards to Chang's post. The people who make the biggest fuss about political correctness are generally white, middle-class males because racism and sexism does not affect them one iota, and as such they can't see what the fuss is all about. I am a white, middle-class male and I believe that that some laws and policies have gone too far. However, I am also of the opinion that too much racism and sexism goes on under our very noses, so subtly that we don't notice it, but still with great effect, soaking into the collective unconciousness, making it acceptable. Television is still one of the biggest proponents of perpetuating social myths and damaging egalatarianism, especially when it comes to portraying women and their roles in society.**

Response: Actually, you'd be surprised just how many other groups of people actually despise political correctness. And from this, we're talking about the people that PC is supposed to bolster the most. Bottom line, everyone is sick and tired of being told what to think, or how to say it. Everyone is intelligent enough to be diplomatic...some just choose not to. Me, I would much rather be diplomatic, but not at the expense of bending to the will of the Thought Police. There's being polite...and then there's Political Correctness. I'd rather just be polite.




Originally posted by: Scarecrow.

**The society portrayed in Star Trek has long professed to have grown beyond shallow, twentieth century thinking. It claims that all people of all races and sexes are totally equal. I think the show should reflect that thinking. **


Response: For the most part, this is true. Again, I point out that Trek has come a LONG LONG way in its portrayal of women as being equally capable of Command, Action, and every bit man's equal (if not superior) in Intellect. We would never have seen a Janeway character in the 60's as a prominent role. (Witness, The Cage. The Number One character was unacceptable at the time because she was a female in a command position.) Of course, in the Classic series, we did see a female or two in positions of Starfleet prominence, but unfortunately, they were guest characters that the networks would permit because they were just one shots. But, look at the Trek's of Today.


Star Trek:TMP-- (Christine Chapel is now a DOCTOR. Also, it should be mentioned that in the novelization of TMP, the woman that was coming through the transporter when it malfunctioned was a Starfleet Admiral.)
Star Trek IV-- (Madge Sinclair commanding a Miranda class ship)
Star Trek VI-- (Another female captain portrayed at the Starfleet Brass Conference)
The Next Generation-- (Remember the episode where there was a planet full of women, and that males were considered to be the second class species? Also, we have seen plenty of women in command positions in TNG. Admirals, Captains, First Officers, Doctors, etc.) Yesterday's Enterprise, anyone?

Deep Space Nine-- (I don't remember a time in Trek seeing women kick so much arse as in this show. Not to mention, Kira Nerys as an Executive Officer-now Commander- of DS9. Jadzia could hold her own against most Klingons, and she and Ezri had the wisdom and experiences of their symbiont's past hosts to draw upon.)

Voyager-- (Finally, a female Captain! I fell in love with the idea from the off. A female Chief Engineer. And Seven. Yes, Seven looked great in a catsuit, but she was also a major contributor to Voyager's success at getting home. Again, I know it's difficult for some people to look past the catsuit, and nubile body, but her character ROCKED! Not to mention there was a brief time we actually saw her in a Starfleet Uniform. She made it look good too, and it was the traditional fit for females. I probably would not have minded if she were to have worn a Starfleet uniform for the remainder of the series. Sure, I would miss the catsuit, but her CHARACTER would still be the same. And it's the CHARACTER that counts.)

Star Trek NEMESIS: Janeway is an Admiral. ROCKIN'. Although, some people would probably rib that the only reason she got promoted is so that she wouldn't get another ship lost again. LOL! Codswallop in my opinion.(To offer a Hagrid-ism) Janeway was awesome!





Originally posted by: Scarecrow.
**The original series was one of the worst proponents of sexism. No more so than most other TV series on at the time. Even the one main female character in the show got to do little more than open hailing frequencies. However at the height of the cold war they had a Russian on the bridge!
Enterprise does have a strong female character in the shape of Hoshi and despite being entirely there as eye candy, T'Pol has had her moments so I don't think the show is entirely failing in it's portrayal of women but could anyone imagine having a middle-eastern character on the bridge at the moment? I think it's unlikely. Which is a shame.**

Response-- Again, please keep in mind the times. Back in the sixties, it was still unacceptable to have women in positions of prominence. Also, their clothing styles reflected the style of the era. Miniskirts were a big thing back in the 60's. (Glad to see they still are today...phwoarr!) However, the series did get the attention of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., who praised Nichelle Nichols and asked her to remain in her role as Uhura. Thankfully, she did. I got to meet Ms. Nichols, and she is a wonderful person. As for a middle-eastern character on the new show, well, I agree. Perhaps at the moment, it might not be likely.



Originally posted by: Phantom.

**You know I find this interesting. Two years ago I was the one of those who said this series was going to suck, and now I find myself almost liking it. And those that told me to give it a chance are now the ones saying it sucks. My how things can change.**

Response-- Yeah, ain't it funny? LOL!



Originally posted by: StyroFoam Man.

**'round and 'round we go... Never stops does it.

Thank god it's only a work of fiction. **


Response: Amen to that! Actually, I just had a moment of Monty Python-esque inspiration just hit me.

Officer 1: Enterprise!
Officer 2: Enterprise!
Officer 3: ENTERPRISE!
Yeoman: It's only a miniature!
All Officers: SHHHHHH!






Originally posted by: REG.

**You're going to have to learn to take my opinion for what it is, and agree to disagree, Rayaru, Greg Davis, and General Chang. I can forgive TOS because it is the FIRST Trek series to launch this popular franchise (despite Gene's deliberate sabotage of the third season in response to NBC's programming decision), with later series establishing the continuity, thanks in part by Rick Sternbach and Mike Okuda (as well as writers who have kept to the bible in TNG and DS9).**

Response-- Yes, it is very easy to forgive TOS for that dubious distinction. Back then, I don't think anyone had an iota of notion that the series would go on throughout other incarnations as it did. So, continuity wasn't important. Episodic television was just that: Episodic. With no sense of continuity or even cohesiveness.
Yes, it was very cool that a Trek bible was established to try and keep the later shows consistent.


Originally posted by: REG.

**I could forgive ENTERPRISE if it was the first TV series to be produced, but not as the fourth.**

Response-- On that, yousa point is also well seen.




I think we've learned something today. Sometimes things don't always start off as well jointed, well oiled, and functional as we'd like them to be. Sometimes, a group of ingredients gets thrown into a big boiling pot, the oven is left to cook, we stir things around occasionally, and we get a gourmet feast. Oft times however, we also end up with malaise. As with any property, it is only as good as the people who are behind it. But that is also a matter of perspective. Star Trek is a work of fiction. Rules can change, or even be bent or broken. Any show is capable of producing a genuine gem, or a genuine turkey...and all the Trek shows have done that. There is not one series that can lay claim to batting .1000 . Well, that's all the time we have for today.
Remember to take care of yourselves, and each other.


Respectfully,
General Chang

[Don Mappin]

Current season (3 episodes -- 4.4, 4.2, 4.4)

Average: 4.3
High: 4.4/7
Low: 4.2/7

For last 2002-2003 season:

Average: 4.2/6
High: 5.4/8
Low: 3.4/5

First 2001-2002 season:
Average: 6.1/9
High: 9.1/15
Low: 4.4/7

I'm no expert but these ratings show, pretty clearly, that there was a significant buzz when the series first launched, people gave it a chance (1st 5 episodes did very well), and then they went away. Unfortunately for UPN, they don't appear to be coming back.

That's not the worst news, however. The highest rated episode last season as was "A Night In Sickbay" with a 5.1/8. That means expect to see more skin and less Star Trek in the upcoming season.

As for me? The last episode of Enterprise I watched was "Shockwave" back in season 1...

It's going to take a lot more than changing the name of the show to woo back Star Trek fans.

Sources
http://www.upn11tv.com/index2.htm
http://www.trektoday.com

[Phantom]

Agreed.

I find it really strange that we can see this, but the TV execs are totally blind to the problems. ::shrug:: Just have to wait and see what they pull out of their...hats, yeah that's what I was going to say. Hats.