Gettin' Paid

[cke]

In the PBEM I'm in, I was told that as long as they don't directly violate any of the general orders then it's fine for a starfleet officer to be as motivated by profit as they like. They can be out for as much as they can get off duty.

Additionally, I was told that starfleet officers do in fact get paid for their work, and Picard's views of mankind leaving behind materialism are nice ideals but aren't universally practiced by starfleet officers.

For the life of me, I can't find anything to support that view, and I was hoping that some of you could share your thoughts on the subject.


-Christian

[Joe Dizzy]

Sounds to me like someone's trying to "fix Trek's inherent problems/stupidity/PC-ness/yadda-yadda-yadda" in his game making it more "realistic" and "believable".

As I'm so very fond of saying.. "If I wanted realism, I'd look out the window!"

Joe

[cke]

That's the impression I got as well. But as my knowledge of Trek isn't perfect, I was quite happy to let them at least show me where in canon they act differently.

When I asked if Picard's view wasn't still a fundamental part of Starfleet's outlook, the repsonse I got was mroe of a "yes, a crap part" than a "oh it was, but here's where things started to change and that's what we're going with" one, much to my disapointment.

So far we have the fact that lots of people gamble on the promenade in DS9. When I aksed if that actually meant that they were doing it to get rich or if it was just for fun, I got more of the same.

[Tobian]

Well you can read this, iit's quite a comprehensive detail of money as seen on the show http://www.ditl.org/articles/hedmoney.htm

However, it's generally inconclusive and really just denotes the facts.

IMHO - your PBEM sounds wierd - what would you want money for if you're a Starfleet officer? Buy personal posetions - why you have a replicator - by food - ditto - by guns - you shouldn't have anything non regulation unless at the express permission of your CO (such as Worf and his ceremonial Klingon blade, which he rarelly uses while on duty).

Yes I think it's been established that officers do get a 'budget' for while they are outside of the Federation, for picking up rare or unusual items - but it's generally frowned on to become obsessive about personal belongings. One of the things that bugged the hell out of me in Generations was that Pickard just tossed asside the Kurlan Naxos (which was given to him by his recently dead professor) - but then I guess that's because he's just not that possessive.

I can't see any evidence that officers would be encouraged in any way to be like that - even if you could argue they get 'paid' - because all of the officers look on in dismay at everyone who is like that - I.e. the the look they get when a Ferengi starts talking about 'profit' - Ultimatelly - they might have money, but they aren't profit oriented, because there isn't much they need to buy, which isn't provided for them by Starfleet and the Federation.

The only thig i guess you couldn't get would be black market goods - things which are illegal in the Federation - Ilicit Drugs, Romulan Ale, powerful weapons, Industrial espionage.. Sure they could 'buy' a fleet of ships if they did that - but then they would also be kicked out of Starfleet for illegal sales, and probably be criminally charged!

[cke]

"IMHO - your PBEM sounds wierd - what would you want money for if you're a Starfleet officer?"

That's just what I said. I just couldn't understand it. The character in question is an Orion. He's been approved and his culture's history of piracy and material gain hasn't been left behind apparently.

This Orion wants to, ah how can I say this without avoiding the weird tag. Nope I can't. This character wants to use the replicators to create new recipes of his own design and sell them in his spare time.

I was picturing a kind of slush fund or whatever, so that they could trade with other civilisations. After all, you see some personal items in the crew's quarters but they're not filled with all the crap that we all carry around. It's just not important to them.

My nightmare culinary disaster scenario didn't go down to well with the others. I said how could you trust the opinion of another senior officer in a situation involving two conflicting cultures, if he's using his advanced cooking knowledge to trade with one of them. How could those cultures trust us and weren't we interfering.

I was trying to be light hearted about it, but I just got more "Picard's view is wrong. We have no evidence to support it but it's just not right and that's it." It only got worse form there :-)

I took it that it was a combination of technology, replicators, transporters etc as well as cultural shift due to war on earth and exposure to alien life that changed things around. Not to mention the sudden availability of simply staggering resources beyond earth.

Mudd and the guy selling the tribbles was mentioned to me, but they're not Starfeet officers, and I'm left a bit bemused by it. The consequences of having officers trying to make money on the side is just disastrous. Considering these people would cry murder if so much as degree of a warp nacelle was altered, it struck me as odd that they have no problem in ignoring the actual underpinnings of how how starfleet works.

That's why I assumed that there was a strong case for a view differing from Picards. I'm beginning to wonder if it's just the game I'm in.

[Tobian]

I am sorry mate, but it's just the game you're in. There is just no precidence for it.

it's absolute rubish to say that it doesn't take into account the vast amount of resources suddenly avaiable to the Federation NOW - well I am sorry - a Civilisation that can build thousands of Starships a year, build artificial objects as large as 'Starbases' all around it's space has all the resources it needs! Even if you take conservative estimates on the size of the Federation - it's VAST - and one star system with a few gas Giant sized planets can provide enough resources for a hundred ships - Hydrogen is extremelly readily available - and that's all you need to get vast quantities of free power - enough to drive a million Replicators.

Earth is a utopia - it is not bothered by famine or disease - that has consistently been shown. Yes there are always 'luxury' non replicateable goods - but that is 'lixury' not 'neccessity' - they have all life's neccessities!

On DS9 - yes officers used money - but the thing was - it was a circular economy - Quark paid for the rent of his bar - that went into the coffers of the Starfleet staff, which in turn they spent at his bar. The main proffits Quark would have made were from Dabo and outside visitors - he would have made no money off Starfleet.

Yes it has been consistently shown that Starfleet officers do know what money is and CAN get hold of it if they need it - they even get 'paid' - but this pay is really only for getting lifes little luxuries - buying a painting, fancy clothes made by your favourite tailor etc - but mostly these things have been 'bought' from people OUTSIDE of the Federation - which DO have money - no one is denighing the Ferengi's don't !

There are federation credits but mostly it's a fluid barter economy. Look at the sale of the 'Barzan Wormhole' - the things being offered were not 'flipping great wadges of cash' - it was trade agreements, resources for their people, technology etc. Money becomes a worthless commodity in the face of galactic exchange of titanic structures and objects - The Federation simply barters for it with something of relativelly equal value - and shares out it's resources...

At the end of the day it's just fiction - your PBEM has EVERY right to make up whatever rules it wants, it doesn't have to live by the world as set down by Paramount - they cam make Ferengi's pink and tribbles 8 foot tall - it's their game if they want too, but you are right, nothing seen on the show supports their view in a cannonical sense!

[cke]

Thanks for all the response on this. Much appreciated as was the great link.

"I am sorry mate, but it's just the game you're in. There is just no precidence for it."

Oh dear. I had a nagging feeling at the time that this was the case.

The weird thing is that I'm on another sim in the same network. The idea was that I'd leave that one once this new one got underway. It turns out I have no problems at all with the original one, while this one is just a massive headache. :-)

The first two lines on that link sum up the situation I'm in exactly:-

"Somewhat surprisingly, fans who have no problem accepting the idea of faster than light travel, time travel, phaser weapons and subspace anomalies find that the idea of a society operating without money is 'unbelievable'!"

I think they spend waaaay too much time in their rooms drooling over warp cores, while not having a bloody clue about some of the larger issues going on around that. :-)

I couldn't agree more about the changes you suggest with humanity no longer having to live in a finite economy, constricted to earth.

Likewise, while there's a little confusion as to exactly when money was practically left behind, the attitudes of the starfleet officers towards it are consistent enough. Mind you, I'm having to come to grips with the mission being a secret, stealthy, ninja mission into Cardassian territory with a ship full of super-characters. One of them being out for profit is just adding to my fun :-)

Thanks for the point regarding the circular economy involving DS9 and how the starfleet officers use their money. It clarifies a few things for me.

"At the end of the day it's just fiction - your PBEM has EVERY right to make up whatever rules it wants, it doesn't have to live by the world as set down by Paramount - they cam make Ferengi's pink and tribbles 8 foot tall - it's their game if they want too, but you are right, nothing seen on the show supports their view in a cannonical sense!"

Yup, it's a game and there for some enjoyment, but it's part of a network of sims that takes a lot of pride in consistency and staying as closely as possible to being based on canon material.

I'm quickly learning that you can pretty much do whatever you like as long as you don't muck around with the ship designs, which is rather sad.

[Tobian]

Hehe - well the problem is they all say that - Like everything else it's incredibly easy to fall into the trap of 'I am right and I can prove it by saying this' - invariably the evidence is far from conclusive and it overwrites what has been seen before.

Yes sadly allot of games out there can be a little 'fanboy' ish.. IMHO playing in a PBEM is about the restraint that officers have - yes in Startrek they have always had XYZ which is far more powerful than in any other show - but they simply chose not to use it. i.e. Trilithium weapons, subspac weapons - they are just a dohicky that mkaes the show tick. Extracting all of these elements and putting them all in one place is ludicrous, and also lacks a certain ammount of imagination.

Personally I don't like games in which they have all the toys without any of the social morays - the social morays are why the Federation is a nice place to live and not a free for all ruthless empire!

if you want to play a bunch of self serving power mad crazy loons - play a Klingon PBEM (Sorry this is unfair to klingons hehe) - I just like my Startrek to be Startrek!

But hey, if YOU enjoy it - play it

[Balok]

Well, here's what I posted earlier on your other thread of this same name:

My view on it, which is intended to strike the balance between TOS canon, and TNG canon, is that people still get paid, but a lot of stuff is free.

This is made possible because man has learned to generate energy more economically. Folks living in ancient times were lucky to have a single garment, and they walked everywhere. Compared to them, even today's working poor aren't too bad off. (This is not meant as a political comment, just as an expression of relative wealth).

It seems reasonable to assume that in the world of Trek, all the basic needs/wants are provided: energy, food, medical care, housing, education.

But it also seems reasonable to assume that people are compensated to the degree to which they expend extra effort, and since Starfleet officers are out there on the sharp edge, plus they need a lot of specialized skills, they'd be in that group.

But I believe the difference between a highly compensated individual and a non-compensated individual is considerably narrower than today.

There's also likely to be a shift in attitudes in two ways: folks don't look down as much on those who have lesser skills, and folks have more opportunities to get skills and do things with their lives, instead of wasting them. So there are fewer "non contributors".

All this is very ivory tower, and I don't claim it's very practical. Human nature being what it is, I suspect thousands of years of incremental changes in attitude will be necessary, with more than a few dystopias in the middle. However, it's what I believe Roddenberry's vision is about -- optimism.

[Tobian]

Good points. What is so wrong with having a little optimism! Leave anarchism and distopia for other SciFi genres - just about all the other one's are! and go anywhere outside of the Federation, you have the same problem.. So if you want to run a money based game it's easy to do it in a Startrek genre, if not Starfleet it's self.

[cke]

The good news is that I was chatting to the CO of another sim on the network, and he pretty much shared the same view as I'm hearing here.

It was nice to know that a lot of others there, also quite like the idea of preserving the spirit of what star trek is about, rather than just blowing the crap out of everything in sight.

No one there can find a view that goes so much against Picards as I was seeing, so hopefully it'll get squished if t rears it's head in play.

Thanks again for the feedback on this. Trek would have lost a lot of it's charm for me, if I thought everyone was suddenly out for themselves. The information here was very handy in trying to support my views.

[Tobian]

Well you're speaking to the CO of another Sim here

I'm sure there'll be plenty of people on both sides of the fence on that one just take out of Trek what you enjoy and forget the rest.. for me - Transwarp here we come !