Who is Morgoth?

[Sarge]

Aslan, Eru has no peers at all. Absolutely peerless. If the Maiar and Valar are angelic beings, then Eru is God. Not a god, but God with a capital G, creator of everything, without whom there would be no universe to even conceive of things like angels, gods, time, matter, energy, etc. Omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient. That's Eru.

He doesn't seem to interfere much with the world he created. I think it was CS Lewis who said that God doesn't appear on Earth, and His presence would be like the appearance of a play's author onstage. That doesn't happen until the play is over. So I wouldn't expect to see Eru in Middle Earth before the End of Time, or maybe a little after that.

[Greg Davis]

I think you're pretty dead on the money here, Sarge. In fact, it isn't really even Eru who creates the world, but rather the Ainur who give it basic life, shape and substance with their themes (though this was instigated by Eru) and later their actions. Really, it seems like Eru's primary role is that of lifegiver to the Ainur (as well as to the Elves and Men), who then take the gifts given them by Eru and create, shape and mold Middle-earth, while Eru sits back and watches.

Honestly, I can only think of 1 time when Eru physically interferes in Middle-earth after the time of creation, and this was at the request of Manwe (when the world was bent, Numenor sank to the bottom of the sea and Valinor was made essentially inaccessible by any save those who knew the 'straight road' to the blessed realm).

An interesting (to my mind) philosophical question that I just thought of, in relation to the discussion of Eru, concerns the Flame Imperishable. While I don't have my copy of the Silmarillion with me (I'm at work), I don't believe that Eru created the Flame Imperishable, but drew upon it to create the Ainur, and, given Melkor's interest in locating it and harnessing its power, it seems to the 'mystical battery' for the Middle-earth universe. Did Eru create the Flame Imperishable, or was it perhaps the other way around? Or did Eru have to find the Flame Imperishable? Maybe Eru and the Flame Imperishable are one and the same (just different manifistations of the same being)...

Really, I'm just rambling, and have no answers (nor do I really expect to find any). It was just something that popped in my mind, so I thought I'd share my ramblings with you all...

Sorry if this sidelines the discussion...working late nights, alone, makes one think of strange things, I think.



Greg

[Evan van Eyk]

Originally posted by Greg Davis
I think you're pretty dead on the money here, Sarge. In fact, it isn't really even Eru who creates the world,

*with worried teacher look, shaking head* Who has not read the Silmarillion careful enough, here?

Eru created the grant music which shaped Middle-Earth until its end. While the Valar, including Melkor were allowed there part in it, they only followed Erus lead - with the sole exception of Melkor who steadily included misharmonies and thus brought evil into the world. The history and all that happens on middle-Earth was laid down by that melody. Later the Valar were allowed to enter this created realm. But you certainly cannot say that Eru did not really create Middle-Earth.

@EW Dawson: What was not mentioned up to now is that Melkor/ Morgoth was the most powerful of the Valar, that is why he was able to create his own partial melody in the creation of Middle Earth. He envied Eru for his powers and soon became seperated from the other Valar. He desrtoyed the two Light Trees ( from which the White Tree of Gondor is a descendant ) with the help of (not sure about spelling ) Ungoliath - the first giant spider.
Additionally he created the Orcs, Balrogs, Dragons, Trolls, etc.
Orcs are assumed to be fallen Elves. Balrogs and along with them Werewolfs and Vampires are powerful ghosts. Dragons were a copy of eagles and Trolss should mimick the Ents.
What is very important is that Morgoth is not dead, he is just out of play. Together with all other fallen Maiar he lives now in the great Void, surrounding Middle-Earth.

[Greg Davis]

Originally posted by Evan van Eyk
*with worried teacher look, shaking head* Who has not read the Silmarillion careful enough, here?

I think you're missing my point here. Eru even notes, after the themes are ended, that the Ainur should behold what their music has created. As I previously mentioned, this music was instigated and guided by Eru, but is a direct result of the efforts of the Ainur (which was my point, actually...that Eru didn't simply create Middle-earth for the Ainur to populate and mold, but guided the Ainur in its creation by directing their themes). When Tolkien writes to the effect that Eru raises his hand, and a new theme arises, I take this to mean that, amongst the various choirs of the Ainur, a new chorus begins, as it would be the Ainur who give voice to the direction of Eru.

Really, this could all be seen as a matter of symantics, I suppose, but I'm inclined to believe that the Ainur (particularly the Valar) created Middle-earth, through with guidance of Eru, thus making them feel more responsible for it (sort of a 'it's your bed, lie in it' mentality, I suppose).



Greg

[Evan van Eyk]

OK, I can see that and agree that this is a valid interpretation of the process. On the other side does Eru not mean "the creator"?

[Greg Davis]

Originally posted by Evan van Eyk
OK, I can see that and agree that this is a valid interpretation of the process. On the other side does Eru not mean "the creator"?

I'm glad that we can agree on different interpretations.

I don't have my Tolkien translation book with me at the moment, so I'll go ahead and presume that Eru means something equivalant to 'creator'. It would certainly be valid, given that he created the Ainur, as well as Elves and Men, who then go on to create Middle-earth, the rest of its occupants as well as everything else that makes up Middle-earth. Were it not for Eru, nothing would exist, so labeling him as 'The Creator' certainly makes sense, in the broad sense.



Greg

[Chris Landmark]

Actually, Eru shows the Ainur a vision of what their music was about, and because they were all interested in it enough, Eru made it so, and Eä came into being. Eru was the only one who could give Life (the "secret fire" occasionally mentioned) to things, which is what Melkor/Morgoth most envied. Being the Satan figure is always rough.

JRRT was a rather staunch Catholic, and kept to the "almighty, maker of heaven & earth" line even in his great work of fantasy.

And to go back and pick a nit that Aslan brought up earlier, Sauron DOES in fact take on physical form at the end of the Third Age. There is a passage in the Two Towers (haven't the time to look it up precisely) where Frodo is talking about how Isildur cut the One Ring off of Sauron's hand. Gollum replies that there are only four fingers on the "black hand, but they are enough." Keeping in mind that Gollum was personally ... questioned ... by Sauron about that Baggins character, and that sounds like an eyewitness account to me.

Right, I'll stop niggling about the details now.

-Chris Landmark
(Don't hold me to that promise...)

[E W Dawson]

Wow. This has become a bit more complicated than I originally thought. This is all good and interesting stuff, though. For me, one of the biggest draws to JRRT work is the incredible amount of detail he put into it.

Just out of curiosity, where is everybody geting their info from?

Thanks for the help guys!

[Sarge]

Read the books! It's all right there in black and white! Well, except for the stuff between the lines, stuff that leads to some of these debates (which I find enthralling, but, hey, I've been enthralled by just about everything I've ever read by JRRT).

[AslanC]

Originally posted by Chris Landmark
JRRT was a rather staunch Catholic, and kept to the "almighty, maker of heaven & earth" line even in his great work of fantasy.

Wasn't he specifically a Jesuit?

Originally posted by Chris Landmark
And to go back and pick a nit that Aslan brought up earlier, Sauron DOES in fact take on physical form at the end of the Third Age.

I don't recall bringing this up? Any chance you can quote me, cause it is possible, I just don't recall

[macaddicttt]

Wasn't he specifically a Jesuit?

A Jesuit is a member of the Society of Jesus, an order of the priesthood. Tolkien definitely wasn't a priest, so he wasn't a Jesuit.

[AslanC]

Originally posted by macaddicttt
A Jesuit is a member of the Society of Jesus, an order of the priesthood. Tolkien definitely wasn't a priest, so he wasn't a Jesuit.

My bad.

Can't remember where I hear that. Maybe he went to a Jesuit school, like Loyal Academy here in Montreal.

Or maybe not

[ben hur]

Originally posted by AslanC
My bad.

Can't remember where I hear that. Maybe he went to a Jesuit school, like Loyal Academy here in Montreal.

Or maybe not

He was taught by a priest for a while, when he was younger, and was definitely a very staunch Catholic as has been said.

But no, definitely not a Jesuit.

I'm a good Catholic myself, but I'm certainly not a Jesuit priest. At least not yet!

Rock on, Aslan.