Paramount hypocrisy in yanking FASA's license

[C5]

As many have said, some debates may never be settled in Trekdom - Trek being an utopia as well as a Sci Fi series, coupled with the lack of coherence between the different series and even inside a series makes it quite easy to have as many interpretation of a given aspect of the world as there are fans. Not only do we have the Dreamers and the Militarists byteknight described (and very well by the way), but many other factions or subfactions - the money vs no money, family onboard vs StarFleet only, all greed eliminated vs it's easy to be a saint in Paradise, TOS vs TNG, etc, etc, etc. Therefore, I think any view about the Trekverse will meet roughly one supporter for 5 or 6 detractors.

But I think there's another fact as far as games are concerned, and it's quite simply the type of games that exist. I doubt Activision said to Paramount : "Right, we consider StarFleet to be militaristic, so we'd like it to create a game centered on an elite force team that is sent on dangerous missions", but instead "Hey, we'd like to do a first person shooter in the Trek universe, and we have this concept". Same for any "militaristic" games like Armada or Bridge Commander.
So what Paramount has to choose from is either be very strict about which games they admit, and thus don't have many Star Trek video games being produced (while in the mean time you see every part of other franchises universes being turned into games), or accept that the most successful types of games are turned in a Trek flavor, even if it means to diverge a bit from the serie's ideal or canon (like being able to create a few dozens of Sovereing class to stop the squadron of Borg Cubes in Armada). I don't think that, from a marketing point of view, there's much room for hesitation here....

[REG]

Originally posted by Tobian

With regards to Fasa - the way i see it is that it's Paramounts ball and if they want to take it home with them they can. it's the danger of being involved with any franchise PERIOD. If you look at it another way, this time it worked to our favour as Paramout pulling the plug from out of WOTC has meant we get to have a new Startrek product! Good or bad is personal opinion but it has to be better than nothing!

As a d20 gamer who is still a LUGTrek gamer, I disagree with the latter statements, but I will not get into an argument, so let's leave it at that.

Perhaps in hindsight, the many events in sequence (Decipher stole the license from under WotC, WotC's sudden business decison to lay off people as part of their restructuring plan, Decipher hired the unemployed LUG/Wizards staff to head up the RPG Studio, etc.) have happened as the way it should be, but back then it could go either way.

[Tobian]

The reason I say that is that it is of the general opinion that WOTC had every intention of buying out LUG for the simple intention of taking out a competitor and had no long term plans to ever publish an update to or honour / continue with the original ICON system and finish off the LUG products.

Maybe D20 Startrek might have been good - maybe it wouldn't ( I am in that camp!) but the point being WOTC held the liscence and they weren't going to make it due to cut backs in their own company.

Whether that was a deliberate move or accidental because of internal restructuring the fact still remains the same that without Deciphers intervention, nefarious or otherwise, there would likelly not be a living Startrek game today.

I still have all of my LUG products, they were very good, but I am, overall, much happier with the Decipher stuff, and no I am not just saying that

Maybe it's just because they all look horibly dated now but even back in the day none of FASA's stuff ever tempted me to lift it off the shelves.

[REG]

With all due respect, it is that general opinion that I do not adhere to with regards to LUG.

And yes, it would have been good, had Wizards decided NOT to lay off people and allow LUG's pool of designers in LA to do d20 Star Trek as well as any Wizards' non-D&D RPG product line (and that may include Star Wars).

Also, you have to remember the timeline. LUG was acquired during July (a few months before negotiation). Decipher acquired the ST license and made the announcement at GenCon (as usual, to upstage rival Wizards). Unfortunately, Decipher's license don't begin until January 1, 2001, the day after LUG's license expired. It was about a good four months did Wizards have the license. Why Paramount didn't give Wizards at least a chance to negotiate? I smell a corporate conspiracy.

As for old products, dated or not, they still have abundance of material that you could use in your own Star Trek campaign of your liking. Heck, I still use the D-10 Riskadh-class battlecruiser in the old FASA's SRM simply because I like that design, despite it bears a non-canon conjectural status.

[Ezri's Toy]

Originally posted by REG
With all due respect, it is that general opinion that I do not adhere to with regards to LUG.

And yes, it would have been good, had Wizards decided NOT to lay off people and allow LUG's pool of designers in LA to do d20 Star Trek as well as any Wizards' non-D&D RPG product line (and that may include Star Wars).

Also, you have to remember the timeline. LUG was acquired during July (a few months before negotiation). Decipher acquired the ST license and made the announcement at GenCon (as usual, to upstage rival Wizards). Unfortunately, Decipher's license don't begin until January 1, 2001, the day after LUG's license expired. It was about a good four months did Wizards have the license. Why Paramount didn't give Wizards at least a chance to negotiate? I smell a corporate conspiracy.

There's one thing that's missing from this scenario: Most licenses for intellectual property have a kill clause when a license-holding company changes ownership. This prevents a third-party from indirectly acquiring rights to a property without direct negotiation with the owner of said property.

At the time of LUG's sale to Wizards of The Coast, the only really hot property LUG had was the Star Trek RPG. From what I understand, WOTC bought LUG with the sole purpose of acquiring the Star Trek license. But, the kill clause immediately terminated the license and the rights reverted back to Paramount.

I understand that WOTC had intended to continue developing the Star Trek RPG with at least some of the old LUG staff; But, when the license didn't transfer with the company, they laid off all the staff because they didn't intend to develop any of the other games they acquired with LUG's purchase.

Therefore, at the time of LUG's sale, Paramount was free and clear to establish a new Star Trek RPG license with anyone they chose. Since Decipher already had the CCG license, was familiar with catering to the niche market of hobby gaming, and already had distribution channels to that market, they were the perfect choice for the RPG license.

So, from what I understand, there was no corporate conspiracy but just plain day-to-day business. I don't claim to be an insider on this topic or have any special knowledge; It's just how I understand how that deal unfolded.

[REG]

But you and I don't know if LUG's license specifically have a kill clause.

And you should know the timeline. WotC didn't immediately laid off newly-employed LUG staff, once the Decipher news made announcement in August, usually when the GenCon event is held. In fact, it wasn't just Wizards that was laying off, it is their parent company Hasbro that was also laying off employees too.

[Tobian]

With regards to the old LUG products I do regularly use them in my games, for the source material, as the large majority of it hasn't yet been made hideously unworkable with recent Enterprise changes to the timeline (and no I don't want to go in to that!) - the Old LUG source material was excelent for it's depth of quality and content and the vast majority is description based and like the system, rules light, so it's easy to adapt.

IMHO I hated the idea fro the get-go of a D&D style Startrek - it just wouldn't feel right to have ranks based on levels - and if it wasn't based on levels then you make another layer of complexity and potential for unballancing. I seriously hope that Decipher don't get pressured into making a D20 game - not every game has to be ONE system!

However, anyway that's the same old arguments again and again so I'll stop there.

I wouldn't be entirelly surprised if there was corporate shenanigans. To be honest, given that both WOTC and Hasbro are among the biggest guns, with the largest ammount of 'high priced lawyers' it's good to see someone else get one over on them!

All the rest is only supposition, but Ezri's argument makes for compelling and logical reading; it's the most probable. Bottom line it's Paramounts liscence to grant to whom ever it felt like and I think it speaks volumes that they didn't like to give it to WOTC.. after all, they still could have gone down that route if they'd wanted.

Writers on message boards and GM's in their own home can perscribe to whatever beliefs about the universe they chose too, but it's Paramounts perogative to maintain the franchise in an image it choses too. If it wanted to make it overtly militaristic now that gene's gone it could. If it wanted to return to the halcyon days of TNG with prosperity and equality for all (with a few kick ass battles to keep it that way) then it can too. Right now paramount is really only following the ratings, which is exactly why Startrek is and always was incosistent throughout all of it's seasons. Primarily we have to remember Startrek is a TV show and it's main aim is to pull in viewers, in the american section of the market. The larger proportion of the fans who nit pick are from Europe, where they are more continuity oriented (IMHO - and I include myself amongst them) - the fickle nature of TV in America means there are less long term viewers for any show who are prepared to stick with it even if they don't have easy access to it or it sucks - so as the Startrek machine goes on they get more and more in to the 'cool feature of the week' game against their competitors; which is REALLY why continuity is broken - features come first in ratings.

I agree that Paramount, as viewed thoughout their history of producing Startrek is easilly seen as being inconsistent and hypocritical. However you have to look at it from the marketing angle. Gene created a vision for both TOS and TNG that was of a utopia based series, but which was still based on the dramaturgical prop of space battles to pull in the ratings. When TNG took off, because he owned the concept Gene pushed more for how own way - getting away from the elements of TOS that he hadn't liked and the series took a different (if not incosistent given the 60 year maturation of the Federation!) to more what he liked. That included changing and revising printed material to take the core Startrek content away from the early militaristic stance. This included not only the FASA material but the technical material by Franz Joseph. In retrospect, since Gene's passed away and since the market grew up from a place where Startrek was the biggest thing (if not quite the only) during TNG to where it had to change and receed to a smaller market share - so it changed it's outlook slowly but surelly to a more overtly militaristic one. You can technically argue that it wasn't Paramount's decision to pull FASA but probably due to the change in the TNG era, and Gene's pull on the (then very marketable) peaceful concept.

With audience shares dwindling paramount today is happy to do whatever it wills to keep it profitable, including making first person shooter games, space battle simulations, and of course putting scantilly clad women and increasingly 'cool' space battles in there; over and above maintaining the look and feel of a peaceful version of the future.

[REG]

Originally posted by Tobian

IMHO I hated the idea fro the get-go of a D&D style Startrek - it just wouldn't feel right to have ranks based on levels - and if it wasn't based on levels then you make another layer of complexity and potential for unballancing.

For once, I agree with you regarding rank and level. They should not be so dependent on each other. It's possible to have a very experienced soldier with a NCO rank with a low-level officer leading the team but asking veteran for advice. Levels just represent experience, not rank.

As for adding another layer, that's the only way to do it with regards to the ranking system, because ranks can be rewarded and stripped from a character.

I seriously hope that Decipher don't get pressured into making a D20 game - not every game has to be ONE system!

With all due respect, I hope that they do.

However, anyway that's the same old arguments again and again so I'll stop there.

Fine by me.

All the rest is only supposition, but Ezri's argument makes for compelling and logical reading; it's the most probable. Bottom line it's Paramounts liscence to grant to whom ever it felt like and I think it speaks volumes that they didn't like to give it to WOTC.. after all, they still could have gone down that route if they'd wanted.

A decision which, IMHO, is sad, about as said as extending Brannon Braga's contract on the recommendation of Rick Berman. I can't helped but tell you that I have lost confidence in Paramount.

Right now paramount is really only following the ratings, which is exactly why Startrek is and always was incosistent throughout all of it's seasons. Primarily we have to remember Startrek is a TV show and it's main aim is to pull in viewers, in the american section of the market. The larger proportion of the fans who nit pick are from Europe, where they are more continuity oriented (IMHO - and I include myself amongst them)

While that may be true of the European viewers, there are those IN THE US that also nit-picks Brannon Braga-produced shows and are continuity-oriented.

Unless you don't count Hawaii as a US State (be careful, I may take that as a compliment).

- the fickle nature of TV in America means there are less long term viewers for any show who are prepared to stick with it even if they don't have easy access to it or it sucks - so as the Startrek machine goes on they get more and more in to the 'cool feature of the week' game against their competitors; which is REALLY why continuity is broken - features come first in ratings.

Unfortunately, despite using an archaic form of viewing poll (i.e., Nielsen), I don't think Enterprise is holding strong.

With audience shares dwindling paramount today is happy to do whatever it wills to keep it profitable, including making first person shooter games, space battle simulations, and of course putting scantilly clad women and increasingly 'cool' space battles in there; over and above maintaining the look and feel of a peaceful version of the future.

That's great and all for the franchise, since we view all Star Trek non-TV and non-film media and merchandise as non-canon but still enjoyable to collect, play, watch, and hear. The film and TV Star Trek media must be sacrosanct and stay true to the vision that Gene wanted to portray as well as keeping the continuity, which is a burdensome element for having made 400-plus episodes but not to be negligible nor ignored.

[Tobian]

Don't get me wrong. Because I said all of that doesn't mean I agreed with it all. I think it's quite sad they've done now with Trek, and it started with Voyager - but I don't want to get into the whole ENTRANT thing or people will moan again

I am well aware that there are plenty of states side viewers who are as nit picky as the rest of them, if not moreso, but in some ways it's how Paramount view the american public more than my impression of them. if you beleived TV executives then all TV shows would look like baywatch LOLI am sure most Americans deserve more credit than their own demographics represent them to others.

Maybe Trek would have been better had they never went down the 'peace' path - maybe it'd been better if they'd kept to it.. maybe it'd just be better if they made up their mind! One of the main reasons people tuned in to Trek in the first place was the (relative) consistency. It's amazinz nowadays that Enterprise is going at all, since compared to manyit's a relativelly cerebral show.. if you believe viewing demographics the viewers like em dum !

[Grimace]

I remember back in the day when FASA Trek died. At the same time, the license for Star Fleet Battles (then under Task Force Games) was put on hold while legal difficulties were hammered out. Now I remember hearing what the exact problems with FASA and the Star Trek license were, but the march of time has taken a toll on the memory, so I can't recall as of now.

Suffice to say, it was a sad day for me on more than one front. At least, at a later date (before any Star Trek roleplaying game was put back into publication) I had my SFB back.

As far as the side topic of Starfleet Marines...I use 'em. I like 'em. I believe the idea was (obviously) taken from the fact that large naval ships nowadays have a small contingent of Marines aboard, so why would such things change in the future. The rumored ground forces supplement never got to completion, I have that on word from two seperate sources that I trust. By, not completed, I don't mean in print, I mean even in total compilation. I've heard that parts and pieces exist of it, but I've never seen any of those parts. I wish it had been done. Of course, I wish a lot of things had been done by FASA.

[byteknight]

Originally posted by Grimace
. Of course, I wish a lot of things had been done by FASA.

I second that. It was a fun and enjoyable system killed before it's time.

I also liked their version of Trek, especially the Klingons and the Triangle, where I GMed a merchant campaign for 5 years.

TNG, like everything else, swept aside the FASA version (though I remember people were protesting about it in StarLog magazine at the time) and replaced it with a less interesting universe, in my opinion.


I'm sure there a lot of Trek FASA-ites out there still. Of course, they are all or virtually all in their 30s and 40s now and have moved on from Rpgs and Trek.

I feel like moving on myself from Trek as well and enjoy whatever memories of the Trek universe I have left as a FASA one. Lots of good fond RPG memories especially in the Triangle.

[Sea Tyger]

Originally posted by Grimace
The rumored ground forces supplement never got to completion, I have that on word from two seperate sources that I trust.

The funny thing is, though, is that I remember seeing a copy of the Ground Forces Manual at the Campaign HQ just before I heard the license had been pulled. I was going to buy it, but I didn't have enough cash left in the ol' bank account and decided to wait for payday....

I went back, it was gone, and then the license was gone.

[PGoodman13]

Originally posted by byteknight
II'm sure there a lot of Trek FASA-ites out there still. Of course, they are all or virtually all in their 30s and 40s now and have moved on from Rpgs and Trek.

I take some exception to this.

[REG]

Originally posted by byteknight

I'm sure there a lot of Trek FASA-ites out there still. Of course, they are all or virtually all in their 30s and 40s now and have moved on from Rpgs and Trek.

Nope. I'm a thirtysomething LUGTrek fan and still waist-deep in my favorite hobby (RPG). While I retain most of my FASA-Trek collection, I used them to fill the niche in my LUGTrek game.

[Sea Tyger]

Originally posted by byteknight
I'm sure there a lot of Trek FASA-ites out there still. Of course, they are all or virtually all in their 30s and 40s now and have moved on from Rpgs and Trek.

Nope. 34, still a gamer and a Trekker.