Paramount hypocrisy in yanking FASA's license

[byteknight]

Originally posted by Sea Tyger
Nope. 34, still a gamer and a Trekker.

I myself am 36, a retired gamer and slowly moving on from Trek after a 25 year love of it.

[Dan Stack]

32 year old gamer. Still find time for the bi-weekly game night. Currently playing Decipher-Trek though played tons of FASA-Trek adventures throughout the 80's and 90's (and even maintained a FASA-Trek website for a few years).

[warmon4]

How Roddenberry May have influenced The Loss of FASA Trek


Often times we believe Roddenberry as firmly and always in the “dreamer” camp, that is kind of revisionist history. I think that he was both Dreamer and Militarists at least originally. To often we recall what Star Trek was like based on what Roddenberry said well after the show was over.

Watch the old episodes, yes there was very liberal or modern thinking pieces on race relations, nuclear war and other topics of the day, but you also see episodes on support for arming South Vietnam, the dangers of pacifism in the face of evil and of course Kirk’s need to shoot everything that moved. I do like Roddenberry and the vision he created. The show was full of thought provoking episodes. He created an exciting show that made you think as well keeping your entertained by a thin veil of sci-fi.

After the show was over Roddenberry kept the torch burning. He spoke to who would ever listen about the old show and bringing it back. These dry years are where you get the revision of what the show was really like. It is much easier to draw attention to Star Trek with noble words meant for the antimilitary ears of the post Vietnam era, rather than recollections of a fun show about a Military ship in a Dangerous and unpredictable Cosmos. The more time went by, his own Idea of what the show was morphed more and more into what he was telling the crowds.

You see his Post Dry spell vision in ST:TMP and the first season of ST:TNG. You can see great differences between many original episodes and his “new” vision of Star Trek. They were good shows, but not great stories. ST:Khan was a reaction to swing the show well back to a Military style. I think the best balance between the two was the few seasons of TNG and Movie 6. The idea that Nobel men and women may have to take up arms to defend their way of life and also achieve lasting peace I think was an important part of the original show.

I am much more of a Militarist, but with out Roddenberry’s Guidance there would not be even a show to pick a philosophical side on. He was a great man and brought so much joy into all of our lives or you would not be reading this. He should be honored, but that does not mean we should forget all the gaps in his recollection of what his own show was like.

Now back to the original question.

Now go back to the last days of FASA Trek. The Next Generation was a Gold mine and Rating hit for Paramount. Star Trek 4 was raking in the cash. FASA had picked up the license for the game well before the movies had added so many new fans. The RPG was certainly Based on the ST:TWK and it’s much more Military feel. Roddenberry was in firm control of TNG and ST4 was very big “dreamer” success. Huge amounts of money were being made on very sloppy licensing deals. Paramount wanted all the money it could make out of Star Trek. Roddenberry wanted his vision as the only true Trek vision. FASA was caught between money and a vision and their own blunders of a very useless Next Gen first book , Paramount Lawyers even contended that Next Gen was not covered under the old contract. FASA just went with the line they owned “Battle Tech” and let Star Trek slide away with out a fight. I believe that even if they had tried keep with in the “vision” that is not what would drive the young RPG buyers.

I know the next thought. If there was so much money in The RPG license why did it take so many years to let a new company take a whack at it? A corporate America move slowly, by the time they finished up the legal problems with “Star Fleet Battles” Roddenberry was dead and ST 5 was a bomb. I also believe that the game makers and companies talked to each other and Paramount was certain to have a very bad reputation. Paramount shot itself in the foot and opportunities were missed. Lug Trek was great but books took too long to publish and were hard to find in any thing other than a game store. I am afraid that Decipher is only following the same path. I know the game will be a success when I find the newest RPG books on the shelf at Barnes and Nobel next to the Star Trek Encyclopedia.

[warmon4]

I wanted to know if there was any websites who leaned more to the military side of Trek , I have a story or 2 I might like feed back on and don't want to burden the Dreamers with the War Stories.

[Tobian]

I would hardly think it's fair to say that a RPG is not a success because you can't walk in to your locak bookstore and buy it! I can't recall seeing a copy of D&D in my local bookstore either and that IS a viable financial success!

The market for any kind og RPG is always going to be flakey at best. It is just TOO much of a niche market. While any number of fans might like to read fiction or fact (well fact being a relative term) books at their leisure, but with the RPG market you have to have BOTH Startrek fans AND RPG fans. In the case of Startrek it's often also quite hard to find that niche, because a large proportion of games are oriented towards hitting things with a stick / rock / sworts etc - are usually very violent and involve getting your frustrations out on a piece of paper and a small lead figure Even if the GM prefers a more combative approach with Startrek - the players often need convincing that it won't be boring old Startrek. In todays market, despite the 'changes' made to the core of the show - mud sticks - and some people just don't like the idea of a peacefull concept game, irrispective of your stance on that show. That's certainly been my problem in the past! "I don't want to play a bunch of peacenick hippies" etc

IMHO I think the Decipher guys do have it right in keeping it all quite generic. They present a series of stats and a guide to the history of the Federation as presented in the show.. and a complete freedom to take that how you like it and to me that is more marketable.

[warmon4]

Well I saw D and D books in the fantasy section at barnes and nobel. The reason I say that would be a mark of sucsess is because I know trek fans who buy almost every book but did not even know about all the fun trek "facts" to be found in the RPGs. They are more than just a games book but also a fun trek reference that many fans who don't even play would enjoy. The better the books look and the easier to find in a good outside a game store the more likely they will sell and stimulate more interest in the game. Good for all Trek fans.

[byteknight]

Originally posted by warmon4
How Roddenberry May have influenced The Loss of FASA Trek


Roddenberry was in firm control of TNG and ST4 was very big “dreamer” success. Huge amounts of money were being made on very sloppy licensing deals. Paramount wanted all the money it could make out of Star Trek. Roddenberry wanted his vision as the only true Trek vision. FASA was caught between money and a vision and their own blunders of a very useless Next Gen first book , Paramount Lawyers even contended that Next Gen was not covered under the old contract.

With the 50+ posts to FASA losing the license, it seems this issue still faintly rankles for some after 15 years.

When they lost the license, I remember my friends and I were cursing and swearing Roddenberry's name, blaming him (I could be wrong, but I think Starlog magazine at the time mentioned Gene's name in connection to the losing of the license).

When Roddenberry died, one of my buddies, a firm militarist, let's just say did not say anything nice about him, still harbouring ill-feelings about the fasa license.

An overreaction yes, but I guess we were younger then.

[warmon4]

I do agree with your friend , FASA was a causalty of his NEW vision. I cursed him many years for the new touchy feely Star Trek. It did take Next Gen a few years to slide out from under his Shadow ,and just think how DS9 would have been with him still around. By the way I LOVE DS9 and can't wait for Season 7 to come out on DVD Dec 2nd.

[Ezri's Toy]

Originally posted by warmon4
How Roddenberry May have influenced The Loss of FASA Trek

Speaking of revisionism, what about the above posts ? Roddenberry was a liberal and Humanist long before he created Star Trek. The Humanist philosophy is certainly all over the original Star Trek as well as The Next Generation.

Next, to believe that Roddenberry was the God-King-Emperor of Star Trek would be incorrect. Roddenberry knew that Star Trek was primarily an entertainment and that he had other people to please other than himself, namely audience, sponsors, and network executives and censors.

Roddenberry wanted a show where he could make social commentary as well as entertain in the SF format. We all know Roddenberry's favorite issues: gender equality; racial equality; sexual freedom; civil liberties; the folly of social and political interference; and the narrow, very limited uses of military action.

NBC only wanted a simple "zap gun" show and was opposed to any controversial elements. For example, NBC scrapped the female first officer character from the original pilot, was opposed to the inter-racial kiss between Shatner and Nichols in "Plato's Stepchildren," and airbrushed out Spock's eyebrows and pointed ears on preliminary promotional stills because he looked too satanic and intended for Roddenberry to change the look of the character. (For an accounting of ST's behind-the-scenes politics, read "The Making of Star Trek" by Stephen E. Whitfield and Gene Roddenberry.)

Therefore, the original Star Trek was always a compromise between what Roddenberry and the producers wanted and what NBC wanted. I'm certain that had Roddenberry been given free reign and given everything he'd wanted, TOS would have more closely resembled TNG in terms of story and issues addressed.

After the series was cancelled, Roddenberry sold his interest in Star Trek to Desilu which was later bought by Paramount. When Star Trek was revived for the movies (the heyday of the FASA licensing), Roddenberry's only involvement was as "Executive Consultant" and not a producer . . . and that was at the behest of the fans who insisted that Roddenberry have some role in ST's production. Therefore, at that time, Roddenberry only had influence but not authority.

Roddenberry was known to firmly dislike some of the military aspects that Nicholas Meyer added to the ST movies. But the decision to add or remove those elements wasn't his. It was (ST II-V's) Executive Producer Harve Bennett's. So, during the writing and production of the Trek movies, Roddenberry's views were somewhat marginalized as he had no direct input.

Therefore, at the time of the FASA license, it was Meyers-ian Star Trek that was at the forefront and what was being licensed and marketed by FASA at that time.

When it came to make "The Next Generation," Roddenberry was once again an Executive Producer and able to make edicts where once he had to make concessions. So, the military aspects of Starfleet were once again softened to Original Series standards and commentary on social issues once again began to come back to Star Trek. And since "The Next Generation" was intended for first-run syndication, Roddenberry had no network executives or censors to please; And as the Star Trek property had proven itself to be a guaranteed money maker, Paramount's Powers-That-Be left Roddenberry to his own devices. Therefore, he had more freedom to espouse his views than ever before.

So, this post-TOS "change of heart" never really occurred; Rather, it was the Paramount machine that deviated slightly from Roddenberry's views during the movie era and during TNG that Roddenberry brought the philosophical tone of Star Trek back to what he originally thought it should be.

In any case, as only an "Executive Consultant" during the movie-era, Roddenberry had no say in what Paramount licensed and what it didn't. I'd guess that if Roddenberry had any direct authority on licensed products, the FASA game would have never been released or would have been scrapped sooner than it was.

[WarriorKnight]

Back during DC's ST comic series, Roddenberry sent a letter into the letter column just ripping RPG up as "nothing but kill the Klingon"games. I was at the time very hurt by this attitude from him, as in my game that I'd run for several years at that time had only had 2-3 fights w/anyone (I'm talking all out combat. had several "Friday's Child type games though.) I'm still continuing my FASA campaign today w/the FASA rules. Still hasn’t had much in the way of "space" battles. I got over it & continued running my games the way I'd always had, though I always wanted to meet him (& Richard Arnold who had made several bad comments against gaming, though that might have been him doing he's bit "For King & Country") & let him know that not all gamers were like he stereotyped.I'm learning to like Deciphers Trek,but I'll always be a FASA Trek fan.

[truecrimson]

How does one determine what is "canon" in Trek? In MERP(ICE's Middle Earth game) we have the advantage that our author died leaving total control to his son who has a semi religious dedication to adhering to his fathers vision. TE(Tolkien Enterprises) the company which has lisencing rights to The Hobbit, and Lord of the Rings does not create new material.

But in Star Trek you have now have multiple series, and a lot of movies, not to mention the novels. I remember the GM who got me into Star Trek gaming in highschool complaining about all the people who would come to a game, and second guess everything because they had read something different in some novel.

I seem to recall he also called FASA now and then(he knew some of the people there) and told us FASA was upset with the contradictory nature of a lot of the published material. The Romulan origin question was a big peeve they mentioned to him, as well as the thing about the ground forces and civillian supplements.

Also Decipher is going to run into problems with it's Middle Earth license. They are not licensed by TE, but rathe by New Line Cinema, which is extremly limiting. I'm sure they will do big business on the movies coattails, but long term their hands are seriously tied.

[Chris Landmark]

Originally posted by truecrimson
How does one determine what is "canon" in Trek? In MERP(ICE's Middle Earth game) we have the advantage that our author died leaving total control to his son who has a semi religious dedication to adhering to his fathers vision. TE(Tolkien Enterprises) the company which has lisencing rights to The Hobbit, and Lord of the Rings does not create new material.

Also Decipher is going to run into problems with it's Middle Earth license. They are not licensed by TE, but rathe by New Line Cinema, which is extremly limiting. I'm sure they will do big business on the movies coattails, but long term their hands are seriously tied.

Allow me to leap in and straighten out a few things. Do NOT confuse Tolkein Enterprises with the Tolkien estate. The Tolkein estate is the one in the hands of Christopher Tolkien, and has control of the Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, etc. They have never (to my knowledge) given anyone permission to make anything based upon the material they control.

Tolkien Enterprizes is also known as the Saul Zaentz Company. Saul Zaents bought the merchandising rights to The Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings from JRRT later in his life. All card games, RPGs, miniatures, action figures, movies (Rankin-Bass, Bashki, Jackson, and otherwise) that have ever existed are produced under license to this company. The Saul Zaentz Company also owns Trademarks on lots of the names that appear in Tolkien's writings (though not the copyright, as that still belongs to the estate, along with the actual books of The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings).

This is the reason that the Tolkien Family has kept themselves pretty well distanced from the whole movie phenomenon. They have no say or influence whatsoever in their production, so they're not going to endorse them, (and they're not going to see a penny of the takings either, though you can decide for yourselves whether you think that might have any bearing...).

And for your information, Decipher has licences from both New Line Cinema (allowing them to use the designs, movie-unique characters & still photography from the films in their products) as well as from Tolkien Enterprizes. Just check the legal text on the back of the title page of any of the Decipher books and you'll see. Thich allows them to draw from any material included in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings, including the appendices, so long as that material isn't too heavily related to something that belongs to the Tolkein Estate. So those of you who want First or Second Age sourcebooks are going to have to write your own.

Just trying to streighten out some of the complex legal stuff around some of my favorite books for ya!

-Chris Landmark

[truecrimson]

Yeah, I was trying to differentiate between the two for the example without getting too far off topic for this forum. My understanding was that because the license was sub new line, decipher could not draw from the appendices, which was where ICE drew a lot of material from.

In any case so many Star Trek products were licensed, and so many widely varying movies, and series made, and so many technical manuals, supplements, games, and novels put out that it's hard to keep track of everything, and make it all consistent, especially since many of them are contradictory, or contain pieces of contradictory information. So aside from movies, and TV series which I suppose have to be considered canon even when they contradict, what else would fall under that umbrella?

[Dan Stack]

About to drift further into LotR (so the local mods might want to move this part of the discussion over...)

If my memory serves, ICE actually had the same license as Decipher and they actually included a bit too much stuff from materials outside the scope of their license (especially in their earlier products).

[REG]

I thought the second son of J.R.R. Tolkien -- the one who actually gives a thumbs up to Peter Jackson's adaptation -- runs Tolkien Enterprises.

BTW, it is sad there is a rift between the estranged eldest son, Christopher (runs Tolkien Estate), with the second son.