Subspace Transmission Speeds

[Aldaron]

Just a little query...
Does anyone actually use the "official" LUG "Warp 9.9997" transmission speed for subspace comms?

Just wondering, 'cos it really seems to contradict the TV show (which is higher up the "canon scale"). I don't recall ever seeing a delay between one person speaking, and the other replying, in any episode or movie (unless it happened in TOS, which I haven't watched a lot of).

Every instance seems to suggest that subspace comms travel at something like Warp 10 - that you can communicate in real-time from anywhere. In Caretaker, Janeway is sitting on Voyager at DS9, talking in real-time to her other half (presumably on Earth), at least 100 ly away.

I'm seriously considering ditching the entire thing and allowing instant comms anywhere in the UFP (or its neighbours) - maybe making range the important issue.

Has anyone else done this? If they have, did they find any plotting problems relating to it?

Thanx in advance...



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"May I find you with peace, and leave you with hope."

[Diamond]

I had this problem too. I would have the players get a mission briefing from an Admiral from subspace, and some smart guy asked me how two-way communication was possible given the listed subspace radio speed. Even though that exact situation appears on the show all the time!

Well, I had to think fast and I came up with something adequate, if not perfect. I said that what was actually sent was a computer program created by the Admiral... a virtual agent which gave the mission briefing the way the admiral WOULD have done so, had he been present.

After all, the simulations of personalities shown on the holodeck proves that the Federation has that technology. And I always thought that in the 24th century, near-mairacles would be taken for granted and daily life unrecognizable, but shown "simplified for 20th century appreciation" on our TV screens. A 24th century citizen might compose such a virtual agent message with the same ease as we compose an email.

Of course, my players being clever, they said, "Well, in THAT case... let's hack the source code of this 'virtual agent' to get all the things he MIGHT have said in the briefing but we might have missed. While we're at it, we'll get information on his personality and get the ship's councellor to analize the data to see if he has any weak points...

Needless to say I like their willingness to play with ideas, but I sort of wanted to move the plot along at that point...

[Sundell]

I've had problems from players too. My fix was the use of Deep subspace frequiencies, which travel faster than normal and farther than normal. Luckily i had seen it in a Epiosde and that was the only details given, unfortunately i dont' remeber which episode it was.

[SIR SIG]

Somewhere, probably here, I noticed something like more power better speed. Especially coming from a SB.

But with a CHI factor in the warp scale (see my post in narrators), you can get near real time to atleast 100 ly and maybe a few hundred more.

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SIR SIG a Aussie TREK Narrator

[Aldaron]

Hang on...I'm pretty math-challenged , but I'm still getting a delay of about 20 minutes over 100 ly

Signal at C takes 100 x 365 (days) = 36500 days.
Signal at C x 199516 takes
36500 / 199516 = 0.1829 days (4hrs, 23 min)
0.1829 / 12.96 = 0.0141 days (20 min)

Have I gone wrong here somewhere? I'm not seeing a 40 minute turn-around time as "real-time", and it's definitely way over what we see in the show. Janeway was having a real-time, 2-way "phone call" with her other half, 100 ly away in Caretaker - not 40 minute delays between her speaking and him answering.

Could it be a fundamental bug in the warp speed stuff? Maybe cause an exponential increase in speed for every ".9" added.

eg:
Warp 9.9 = 1,516
Warp 9.99 = 15,160
Warp 9.999 = 151,600
Warp 9.9999 = 1,516,000
Warp 9.99999 = 15,160,000

That cuts the 100 ly message time to about 2.6 minutes - better, but still not close to what we see on the show.

I sort-of like the 'virtual admiral' idea, but I think it would be beyond my players' suspension of disbelief.

I think I'm gonna have to go with subspace transmissions being made at Warp 10. It sort-of fits - our transmissions today are made at the 'universal speed limit' (ie: lightspeed), so it's kinda symmetrical that 'future' transmissions be made at the 'future speed limit'.

I think what I'll do is take the Strength of a comms system and double it, then add the Upgrade bonus and give that as the maximum transmission range. A system which goes past 22.65 ly (ie. a Strength 10, with extra power) has to patch the signal thru the main deflector dish to create a multiplexing beacon (ala Borg). Even so, this requires a Diff (7) Systems Engineering (Communications) roll, and 1D6 hrs work.
For every 3 points by which the roll exceeds 7, the range is doubled.

Eg. A Str 10, Beta Upgraded (+2) system normally has a range of (10 x 2 + 2) 22 ly.

By increasing it's power, it can go up to (15 x 2 + 2) 32 ly, though it will require a roll of (7).
Ranges will be:
Roll (7) Range = 32 ly
Roll (10) Range = 64 ly
Roll (13) Range = 128 ly
Roll (16) Range = 256 ly
Roll (19) range = 512 ly
etc etc.

Maybe this is what the Borg were trying to do, using the Collective as the 'ultimate' cooperative effort to get a really high roll.

Thoughts??

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"May I find you with peace, and leave you with hope."

[SIR SIG]

I'm not sure either, but notice how I said near real time (Plus I didn't look that closely at the figures before posting: My Bad)

Subspace comm. wp 9.9998 with booster relays (9.9999 for our sake)

Wp 9.9999=199516

199516*12.92 (chi) = 2577746.7 ly/year

7057.49 ly/day

294.06 ly/hour

4.90 ly/minute

0.08 ly/second

(This is using the fed average for a starship/ a almost weightless comm message may well be faster with respect to chi).

Some where I said something like:
If there's a relay station every 22 ly then a message can go about 1 ly/hour wp 9.9999 (canon). Now if it were slightly faster so it was seconds to each relay then it would be a shortcut compared to a direct line communication.


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SIR SIG a Aussie TREK Narrator

[qerlin]

We ignore the whole time lag thing unless the other party is 'really far away'...then you have to message them and wait for their response to get to you. Range is important, too; if you're away from the subspace beacon/relays, then I follow the time lag stuff in the book (not very closely, of course) -- I just assume the signal gets pumped up and speeded up by the relays. Without 'em, you're SOL.

[OMNIBUS]

I approach it from the opposite angle. I really enforce the time lag (not too strictly, but enough) so as to have that "frontier" feeling. It was in TOS a lot and I'm afraid that the TNG/DS9/VOY era writers just forgot about it (or just like using subspace radio like a local telephone call since its very familiar to them). I need that time delay, otherwise I found my players just LOVE to call back to Starfleet command to be told what to do when they run into troubling circumstance. It's their way of trying to absolve themselves of any of the tough decisions. You known, pass the buck onto Starfleet command (aka: the GM!) As a GM, I refer to that as the players trying to get me to "role-playing with myself" . No, I LIKE having that time lag.

[This message has been edited by OMNIBUS (edited 01-25-2001).]

[Diamond]

I forgot to mention one aspect of the "virtual agent" way of beating the subspace time lag. After the admiral/player interaction, the computer program uses the starship's subspace radio to send BACK to the admiral a record of what was said.

That way the Admiral gets to hear what the player's said (after the suitable time delay) and prevents the players from getting silly or insulting the message... it's like live two-way communication, but ... delayed.

[Delta]

OMNIBUS'S explanation behind it is very good. Especially about the player's having to depend on their own judgement, and not that of their superior officer's. The frontier-feel is also another good point.

However it just seems to difficult to ignore the current era episodes (TNG, DS9, and Voyager). After all, we take most of what we see on the shows as canon. If they did on the show, shouldn't we be able to use it in the game?

Botom line: the story line, and role playing are the uderlying force. If the story demands lag-free two way communication even if your players are on the other side of the galaxy, so be it! Just give your players some techno-babble to explain it. Conversely, if you want you players to feel isolated yet still in contact with Starfleet command, use the warp speed rule for communication. If it is still an issue, your players are missing the whole point of the game.

[This message has been edited by Delta (edited 01-25-2001).]

[jahn]

I also don't use real-time subspace communications, unless the two parties are within a few light years of each other. And still the characters occassionally want to get feedback from the higher-ups. I tell the players that Starfleet Command put you in command and expects you to exercise initiative and your own good judgement. And if they still call Command without a good reason that's usually a -1 Initiative Renown, though they do get an answer.

[Paxton]

I use a compromise system.

Remember that network of Federation subspace relay beacons? I assume that communication times are instantaneous for messages that are sent from relay station to relay station. There's only a time lag if you are a ship sending to a particular station.

This is how I get around the fact that on the show, messages were either in face-to-face realtime, or on the order of "that message will take three weeks to get there, captain!"

Paxton

[CmdrBluejeans]

I also run a frontier game ... in "Star Trek: the High Frontier", I have already posited that the Frontier (the 'highest' part of UFP-friendly space bordering the no-man's-land of the Kellinan Reach) is 8 weeks away from the core worlds of the UFP, and closer to similar backwater Beta Quadrant Klingon frontiers than to *either* power's Core Worlds.

I'm considering a long-term / permanent series of tweaks to the warp and subspace communications charts to make things more clear, but for now, my general rule is that a message has a turnaround of almost an hour to get to the core worlds from the frontier, and that's *if* all relays are set to allow it to pass at maximum priority.

Remember that yours is not the only packet of information passing through any given set of relays, after all. And it's not like Starfleet Command has a single Ensign dedicated to receiving your message, and handing it to the Admiralty as soon as he gets it. Rather like a car on a major traffic artery, you are occasionally going to hit bottlenecks (regions of dense use) and toll booths (administrative delays) when communicating from the frontier to the core worlds.

BJ

[SIR SIG]

Originally posted by CmdrBluejeans:

Remember that yours is not the only packet of information passing through any given set of relays, after all. And it's not like Starfleet Command has a single Ensign dedicated to receiving your message, and handing it to the Admiralty as soon as he gets it. Rather like a car on a major traffic artery, you are occasionally going to hit bottlenecks (regions of dense use) and toll booths (administrative delays) when communicating from the frontier to the core worlds.

An interesting analogy!



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SIR SIG a Aussie TREK Narrator

[JDHMorgan]

Just giving this a bump. I posted a similar query on another forum by mistake.