Inviting you to share my LOTR wrath

[Scottomir]

Originally posted by T'lara
Grow Up Fan Boys.

I had hoped this could be an engaging literary discussion without being reduced to name-calling. In defense of "fan boys", I would reiterate a point in my original argument: much depends on the strength of the source material. Some books change peoples' lives, some stories become very important to people. The stronger the source material, the more reverently it deserves to be treated by a filmmaker. "Lord of the Rings" fits this description better than probably any other book besides the Bible (and God knows there have been enough horrendous Hollywood adaptations of biblical stories). These are important books that deserve attention to detail: what you so cavalierly dismiss as nit-picking I characterize as love. When you love something, you protect it. "The Bourne Identity" may have been a good book that many people have liked, but I don't think it has the same kind of ardent lovers as LOTR. "The Bourne Identity" movie is just another feeble Hollywood adaptation, forgotten as soon as it is released. "The Lord of the Rings" is in a different league altogether: it is sui generis, an archetype endlessly duplicated subsequently but never bettered.

So I'll conclude by reinforcing my previous assessment that Jackson's films are masterful, both as stand-alone movies as well as book adaptations. In fact, can anybody think of any other movie ever made that is a more literal, faithful adaptation of the source material (not including full-text versions of Shakespeare)? Jackson brings great reverence to the source material to his film versions, and this is why I own the first two and will be first in line tomorrow morning to see the third. I'm hardly lining up with Christopher Tolkien in boycott. That said, I can still disagree with Jackson's choices. It is not a matter of whether or not his films are good, or whether or not they are faithful to the source material--they are on both counts. Because his films are so good they are worth the analysis and conversation. But, he did make some editorial changes to the story, and it is perfectly reasonable for people to argue that this weakened some of the story themes. Peter Jackson himself acknowledges this in his Director's Commentary.

[Phantom]

Well, Faramir is only a mere man. Both in the movies and the novels. My point for the up playing of the corrupting power of the Ring in the movies was to show that only the really powerful (Gandalf) and those who had a "destiny" (Frodo) could resist the Ring. Faramir, being niether of these (yes he had an "earthly" destiny to become King) had to fight to resist the power of the Ring, which took a number of scenes to accomplish. Yes, he was ultimately uncorruptable, it just took more time for him to master his desires then it did Gandalf and Fordo.

[Publius]

It was the fact that Faramir was a "mere man" who the ring could not influence that made his character that much more compelling. The quotes btw are because as a Man of Gondor, a Noble member of an Ancient Line of Stewards et al, and as a sometime-student of Gandalf, Faramir was more than a "mere man"; although compared to Aragorn and some of the others in the LoTR he certainly fits that description in the broader sense. Uber-super-demigods do extraordinary things all the time. Ho-hum. It is when a "mere man" does something extraordinary that we see something truly special. This is particularly true when the uber-super-demigod cannot do that same thing.

I agree that the change was done for dramatic purposes, I understand why it was done in the context of Jackson's altered storyline (the corrupting power of the ring), I just liked the Faramir character as it was in the book. I also think that there was a way that the text's version of Faramir would have worked better into the story (as altered) than by throwing him on the pile with the rest of the characters who have a momentary temptation to take the ring.

I don't appreciate the "Grow up Fanboy" comment either, that sort of nastiness is not what we need to liven up the boards. It doesn't lead to a meaningful discussion and it has the effect of denigrating people for expressing their opinion. I mentioned this topic not because Tolkien's text is sacred (Thank goodness no Bombadil) but because it was important to that character (who is admittedly not all that important in the overall scheme of things, but has a role and place in the tale which is not insignificant either) and had a message to it that was very positive (Humanity is not entirely as violent, greedy and power mad as Galadriel thinks, just 99.9% of us, Go Faramir!).

[REG]

Originally posted by Publius

it was important to that character (who is admittedly not all that important in the overall scheme of things, but has a role and place in the tale which is not insignificant either) and had a message to it that was very positive (Humanity is not entirely as violent, greedy and power mad as Galadriel thinks, just 99.9% of us, Go Faramir!).

I thought Aragorn represents the 0.1% of humanity that are not greedy and power mad.

AFAIC, the movie character Faramir have shown his quality in The Two Towers, but also shows that the Ring is a very powerful and influential object. It did tempted even Aragorn. To say that Faramir is immune to the Ring's effect ... heck he might as well take the Ring and go to Mount Doom himself to destroy it. And Frodo's part in the tale ends there.

Look, we all have accepted the fact that a direct translation of the book to films is impossible. Even the late great Tolkien himself said so. In one of his past interview, he also expressed that given the chance and opportunity, he would have written a screenplay that would bring the magic and spirit of LOTR to the big screen. Unfortunately, he died before he was given a chance.

[AslanC]

A buddy of mine (who is a film critic) has a theory that the books were the real story and the movies are just elf-propganda. All things elvish are graet and all things human suck. even Aragorn must be great, because of his elvish ancestor. That said this is the guy who once played an elf in a D&D game of mien that was almost Nazi-like in his deence of purity of elvish blood (No Half-Elves!). So to me it is a funny theory

The big problem I have with the movie is that Jackson is right up there with a large number of people who think Aragorn can do no wrong and therefore his poop has no oder.

That more than anything else bugs me about the movies. Aragorn is the only human not tempted by the ring. Theoden is wrong, Aragorn is right. Elrond is wrong, Aragorn is right. Boromir at his death too must admit how cool Aragorn really is (well played scene actually). Eowyn is almost trampish and desperate in her throwing herself at Aragorn, etc, etc...

Aragorn rules, everyone else is baggage or there to make him look cool. This is the definative Fan-Boy (to borrow a rather rude term) view of the character. It is the same reason I never liked Wolverine in the comics and laughed my ass off when the Fan-Boys failed to see Lobo was a shot at them, and turned him into the Wolverine of DC comics. That said Jackman's Wolvie in X-Men and X2 is fantastic.

My biggest beef with TTT is when Aragorn rides out of Helm's Deep. In the book it is an act of final desperation and acceptance that they have lost. Only fate plays them a kinder hand by having Gandalf and Eko... (I can never remember that guys name) arrive, as well as the Hurons.

By having Gandalf tell him "Look to the East on the 6th day" it shows that Aragorn is not taking as big a gamble, as he expects the back-up.

Grrrrrr. Now that raelly got up my nose.

Oh and for the record, while the Bourne Identity was very far removed from the book, I absolutely loved this film (save the ending) and have watched it countless times. You might not like it compared to the books, but as it's own story it has a really good flow and is shot exceptionally well.

Lastly, Harry Potter and the Philosophers Stone was a direct adaptation? Excellent. I loved it. Couldn't stand the second one (never read the books) but simply adored the first one. Really captured my imagination and took me to another place.

Sorry for the rant, I have Strep throat and cannot sleep

[AslanC]

P.S. Super-bumed by the Faramir issue (but again Aragorn must look better than everyone else) and really upset that Prince Imrahil and the Knights of Dol-Amroth will not be in RotK.

[Phantom]

Originally posted by REG

AFAIC, the movie character Faramir have shown his quality in The Two Towers, but also shows that the Ring is a very powerful and influential object. It did tempted even Aragorn. To say that Faramir is immune to the Ring's effect ... heck he might as well take the Ring and go to Mount Doom himself to destroy it. And Frodo's part in the tale ends there.

Thank you. My point exactly.

[Joe Dizzy]

Originally posted by AslanC
The big problem I have with the movie is that Jackson is right up there with a large number of people who think Aragorn can do no wrong and therefore his poop has no oder.

I agree partly. One of the scenes that made me like Aragorn in the book was the one after the Fellowship has split and Aragorn is about to despair. I was hoping that Movie-Aragorn would have a scene like that as well, but I guess you can't have a heroic protagonist with doubts in a movie.

My biggest beef with TTT is when Aragorn rides out of Helm's Deep. In the book it is an act of final desperation and acceptance that they have lost. Only fate plays them a kinder hand by having Gandalf and Eko... (I can never remember that guys name) arrive, as well as the Hurons.

By having Gandalf tell him "Look to the East on the 6th day" it shows that Aragorn is not taking as big a gamble, as he expects the back-up.

I was under the impression that when Aragorn suggests riding out with Theoden he isn't thinking about Gandalf returning any moment now. It was more like he encourages Theoden to ride out, and then he remembers that Gandalf announced his return.

The order of the scenes (Aragorn suggest riding out then the Gandalf VO) implies as such. If you look at Aragorn's face... when he suggests it, he is desperate. It's only after he "remembers" what Gandalf said, that he looks more hopeful.

I agree with you though, that Aragorn comes across as a little too perfect and infallible at times. Although he's like that in the book, too. At least about half-way through.

Joe

[REG]

I disagree, AslanC. As I said in my post, even Aragorn was tempted to take the ring when Frodo tested him, right after the incident with Boromir (FOTR film). How he resisted? I don't know. Was it because of his reluctance to inherit the mantle of King? Perhaps.

Of course, if he could easily resist Isildur's Bane, he should take it up to Mount Doom and destroy it.

As for "Aragorn can do no wrong," well, he is the hero and reluctant one. Of course, I like him when he was Strider, the archetypal ranger character.

I dunno, gang. The more we argue, the more we lessen Frodo's role in the epic tale, and cheapens the Ring's evil power.

[AslanC]

Originally posted by REG
I disagree, AslanC. As I said in my post, even Aragorn was tempted to take the ring when Frodo tested him, right after the incident with Boromir (FOTR film). How he resisted? I don't know. Was it because of his reluctance to inherit the mantle of King? Perhaps.

I couldn't agree less. Gandalf was tempted. Galadriel was tempted. Boromir went nuts. Aragorn practically shrugged it off. He didn't seem all that tempted compared to the others.

[AslanC]

Originally posted by Joe Dizzy
I was under the impression that when Aragorn suggests riding out with Theoden he isn't thinking about Gandalf returning any moment now. It was more like he encourages Theoden to ride out, and then he remembers that Gandalf announced his return.

I think he looks up, sees the Dawn, hears the VO and then says "Let's ride out".

Don't have the DVD with me, anyone care to check for us?

[REG]

Originally posted by Joe Dizzy

I agree partly. One of the scenes that made me like Aragorn in the book was the one after the Fellowship has split and Aragorn is about to despair. I was hoping that Movie-Aragorn would have a scene like that as well, but I guess you can't have a heroic protagonist with doubts in a movie.

You mean he should have acted with more emotions -- like bust out his flask and get himself into a drunken stupor -- even though he was consoled by Gandalf about his regret to let Frodo go on his own.

AFAIC, Viggo acted well for his character. The last thing I want to see is a ranger who is high-strung ... like me.

I was under the impression that when Aragorn suggests riding out with Theoden he isn't thinking about Gandalf returning any moment now. It was more like he encourages Theoden to ride out, and then he remembers that Gandalf announced his return.

The order of the scenes (Aragorn suggest riding out then the Gandalf VO) implies as such. If you look at Aragorn's face... when he suggests it, he is desperate. It's only after he "remembers" what Gandalf said, that he looks more hopeful.

That I agree.

I agree with you though, that Aragorn comes across as a little too perfect and infallible at times. Although he's like that in the book, too. At least about half-way through.

You make it sound like the book is flawed to begin with.

[REG]

Originally posted by AslanC

I think he looks up, sees the Dawn, hears the VO and then says "Let's ride out".

Don't have the DVD with me, anyone care to check for us?

Theoden (surrendered): So much death. What can Men do against such reckless hate?

Aragorn (desperate): Ride out with me. Ride out and meet them.

Theoden (renewed): For death and glory.

Aragorn: For Rohan. For your people.

Gimli (observing light through a window): The sun is rising.

*Aragorn looked at the morning sunlight*

Gandalf (VO): Look at my coming at first light on the fifth day. At dawn, look to the east.

Theoden: Yes. Yes. The horn of Helm Hammerhand shall sound in the Deep... one last time.

Gimli (excited): Yes! * rushes to blow the horn *

Theoden (to Aragorn): Let this be the hour when we draw swords together.

"Fell deeds, awake
Now for wrath,
Now for ruin,
and a red dawn."

Theoden: Forth Eorlingas!

All (cheered): Forth Eorlingas!

[AslanC]

Originally posted by REG
You mean he should have acted with more emotions -- like bust out his flask and get himself into a drunken stupor -- even though he was consoled by Gandalf about his regret to let Frodo go on his own.

My God REG that is exactly what I meant! Are you reading my mind? Man that is creepy!

Ok now that the sarcasam has passed, no what I meant was he could have seemed a little more tempted. He just didn't come off all that tempted to me. He jsut seemed almost indifferent.

[AslanC]

In regards to the whole riding out bit, I stand corrected. Still doesen't make me like Aragorn anymore.