Vulcans don't lie... I promise !

[stephane]

Hi all


Just curious about this: the half human / vulcan Spock lied. T'Pol lied. I think Tuvok did. In Enterprise the Andorian Incident shows very deceptives vulcans. Still they aren't supposed too. It is not even clear if they just don't want to, or can't lie.

What about your vulcan PCs ?

[JonA]

I prefer to take the Minbari (from Babylon 5) approach to lying when it comes to lying.

"Minbari (Vulcans) do not lie. Unless lying will save someone elses honour."

[Owen E Oulton]

Vulcans are perfectly capable of lying when it is the logical course of action. "Vulcans do not lie" is a philosophical statement, an ideal.

[Fab]

Exactly, Vulcans are logical. If telling a lie is the logical thing to do, then I would postulate that a Vulcan in that instance must lie.

[Yuber Okami]

no, no NO!!! vulcans don't lie, but all the pointed-eared people you saw in the shows which did that where in fact romulan spies...

No, really, i think vulcans don't like to lie, but they do it when they think it's the only logical thing they can do

[Cybrludite]

Originally posted by Fab
Exactly, Vulcans are logical. If telling a lie is the logical thing to do, then I would postulate that a Vulcan in that instance must lie.

Heh. When I was taking part in a long running chatroom based game based on a group of Starfleet Marine Corps special ops folks, I kept threating to do a Vulcan character. "But, sir, logic would indicate that we leave no surviving witnesses."

[Tobian]

Vulcans would have you beleive that they are perfect, because that is their goal. They would also have you believe they have NO emotions.

Reality shows that vulcans are just as flawed as any human, and ther values can be a hindrance to them as much as a boon. They do have emotions, it's just they chose to surpress them, and use logic to dictate their course of action.

Technically Vulcan't can't lie. It's a fundamental belief, but at the end of the day it is a belief! There is nothing to stop them from doing it other than their own ethics, and when those ethics dictate they must lie, for obvious reasons, derived from Logic, then they will lie.

Situations where Vulcans lie usually revolve around strong ethical crisises.

The notable exception is in Enteprise. All Vulcans lie because they are evil

[adza]

My understanding is the the belief that vulcans believe all of their race capable of achieving Kohlinar, which is pure intellect and the purging of all emotions. In such a case, lying is no longer possible as telling an untruth becomes utterly logical, and logic does not lie.

or something like that. (Pick the guy who plays the vulcan)

also, half truths are perfectly acceptable.

[Mazza]

also, half truths are perfectly acceptable.

Indeed, even pre-Enterprise Vulcans seem to relish in telling them.

[C5]

The very existence of a Vulcan secret service tends to support the fact that Vulcans can lie, otherwise I doubt a Vulcan spy could be very effective... ("Hey, you! Are you spying for the Vulcan command ? " "Damn, I can't lie!! Yes sir, I'm a Vulcan spy in fact")

And I agree the "no emotion" thing was a bit overplayed - it seems to me most Vulcan we saw had emotions of a sort (they just justified it by some twist of logic). For instance, what was the logical reason for Sarek to refuse to speak with Spock after he joined Starfleet ? Similarly, the Vulcan agent of the VIM in the Stone of Gol TNG episode was not what I'd call emotionless... nor was the Vulcan Captain in DS9 who kept nagging Sisko about his defeat.

[qerlin]

Originally posted by Tobian
Vulcans would have you beleive that they are perfect, because that is their goal. They would also have you believe they have NO emotions.

Reality shows that vulcans are just as flawed as any human, and ther values can be a hindrance to them as much as a boon. They do have emotions, it's just they chose to surpress them, and use logic to dictate their course of action.

Technically Vulcan't can't lie. It's a fundamental belief, but at the end of the day it is a belief! There is nothing to stop them from doing it other than their own ethics, and when those ethics dictate they must lie, for obvious reasons, derived from Logic, then they will lie.

Situations where Vulcans lie usually revolve around strong ethical crisises.

The notable exception is in Enteprise. All Vulcans lie because they are evil

I concur.

[Capt.Hunter]

Also remember that most of our religions claim they think killing is a sin - and look at all the holy wars we've had. Surak may have urged a policy of total honesty - it's hard to make a logical decision if someone may have fed you false information (hmm, getting dangerously close to making a political point here...) - but then again some Vulcans may see telling a lie as logical in certain circumstances. There are definitely some who logically believe in using ancient Vulcan psionic weaponry to kill any non-Vulcan on the planet...

[Tobian]

Yep that's a good analogy. Assuming a Vulcan won't lie to you is like assuming a Crusader Knight won't kill you and sack your town Just hope your Vulcan doesn't have permission from his equivalent of the pope

[Shoshuro]

I see the Vulcans in denial. The ones protrayed in Enterprise seem to belive their the adults of the known galaxy. No-one can survive without their influence and no-one can move forward unless its at their pace.

Lets face it, rather we mean to or not, Parents lie to children because we belive they're not ready to handle the truth or that it's partly none of their busines. The faculity on P'Jem(sp?) was there to watch a child, and lets face it; the Vulcans see the Andorians as a disruptive child, and humans as children trying to run before they even learn how to balance themselves up.

[Tobian]

Well it's not that parents lie to their children, so much as they simplify it into patronising aphorisms - that make no sense out of context