22nd Century Technology

[tonyg]

Originally posted by Dan Stack
btw, anyone have any inspiration as to what a post-Enterprise uniform would look like?

I'd suggest something like the uniforms seen in Forbidden Planet . The film was often mentioned as one of Roddenberry's inspirations for TOS, and the uniforms look similiar to those seen in Enterprise and in the TOS pilot.

[mactavish]

So tell me, Dan... what year (approximately) are you setting this series?

mac out.

[Dan Stack]

If I turn it into a series, it'll be in 2171, twenty years after "Enterprise", ten after the founding of the Federation. Though to be honest, I went back to working on the plans out of wanting to finish them.

With my group possibly shrinking I'm leaning towards something a bit more straightforward. I love TOS but a Constitution-class ship is quite a backup to have. A Daedalus, with primitve weapons, unreliable transporters, non-magical sensors, etc. has a certain appeal to it.

[mactavish]

I have to agree with you on your thinking. I, too, think that having your own <i>Constitution</i>-class starship to fall back on makes some things too easy. I also agree that a less advanced vessel - like the <i>Daedalus</i>-class - certainly solves that problem.

On the other hand, I guess that I'm an aesthetic snob. I hate '60's sci-fi... at least in terms of what the space craft all looked like. Sure, it was nifty at the time, but when I think of "futuristic" (regarding starships), I'm not seeing TOS-era ships.

I know, I know... that's what they looked like. While I certainly think that NX-01 is too futuristic looking, I think that moving things forward, cleaning them up, and taking the "model look" away has something to it.

I have never been a fan of 1960s television science fiction, including the original <i>Star Trek</i>. I would have been far more interested if <i>Star Trek</i> had followed the lines set forth in the <b>very</b> first episode (without Kirk) and had stayed true to Roddenberry's vision.

But I digress...

I like clean science fiction... do you know what I mean? I think that future technologies should look... <i>futuristic</i>! Not like something that Bob and Ed built in their garage with plywood and Liquid Nails.

When I imagine 22nd century technology ala <i>Star Trek</i>, I imagine it as if updated to meet my present ideas of what it should look like. I hate that <i>Star Trek</i> had Khan and the genetic supermen and artificial gravity in the 1990s. I'm sure that that is what Gene and his guys believed we'd have by now... and I know that TECHNOLOGY is not the point of the show (the social message is the point)... but WHY can't we have the <i>Enterprise</i>-era look in a TOS setting?!

So anyway... I was thinking that starships would use a deuterium-tritium fusion reactor for power, but that the dilithium crystals (as big a part of the <i>Star Trek</i> lore as they are) would figure prominently into any warp drive system.

Speaking of which... did Zefram Cochrane's <i>Phoenix</i> use dilithium? I don't remember mention of that particular material in <i>First Contact</i>. Come to think of it, I don't think that it's ever been mentioned in <i>Enterprise</i>, either. I wonder why.

Sorry to hi-jack the thread and steer it so far off course, but I REALLY like the idea of a series like this... and I REALLY hate the look of the era. Though I do think that the pre-TOS uniforms are cool, and I do like hand weapons that look like guns (as opposed to dustbusters or my cable remote).

The one thing that I've been considering a lot since rediscovering this thread is pre-TOS computers. Are they based on present 21st-century computing architecture and software (i.e. LINUX or Microsoft Windows 2171... or <i>Chronowerx</i> isolinear GUI), or are they based on revolutionary breakthroughs in optical computing and holographic storage matrices and so forth?

I'm interested on your thoughts in this area.

mactavish out.

[Dan Stack]

To be honest, this series is just something I've had in my head. My DS9 style (Bridgetown) campaign has been taking some hits from the real world - hopefully it will survive them, but if not, this is my backup plan.

The deckplans were something I started just to see if I could do them. Lost interest in them and dropped them and then about a month ago started tinkering with them again. But, being a grizzled veteran gamer I had to think about how I'd use them in a game. (If worse comes to worse, they'll make for a fine derelict...)

Though I love the 1960's Enterprise, I'm inclined to agree that something like that for "Enterprise" (like the Daedalus) would have been a bad move. And I can see how that image could get in the way of picturing reality in an "Enterprise" or early Federation-era game. For a game, I do believe that something like the Akyazi-class would fit the "Enterprise" era perfectly.

Another possible design for a vessel would be that of the ship seen in the opening credits just before NX-01 - I think she's supposed to resemble the Valiant from the Star Trek Encylopedia/Chronology. It would stand to reason that she could be modified with the newer "Enterprise"-tech to serve as a scout vessel.

[tonyg]

Keepin in mind, what looks futuristic depends a great deal on your point of view. The TOS designs do look hopreless outdated today, and even the TMP stuff is begining to look more like a 1980s desgin that something from the future. I suspect that in 2010 people will considing many TNG and DS9 designs as dated.

I've noticed this effect with many real world tech. There was a time when the F-15 looked futuristic to me.

[mactavish]

While I agree with you, I see a great disparity between '60's TV tech and 21st century TV technology. I don't think that, when I look back at <i>Enterprise</i> in ten years that I'll think, "Boy, how archaic looking."

The fact of the matter is that computer generated images have changed the way special effects are done, and I can't imagine the quantum shift that we experienced between TOS and TNG in the next decade. I still look back at <i>Terminator 2</i> (made in 1989) and am roundly impressed with what was accomplished.

So anyway, what about computers? I'm really wondering what kinds of hardware and software they have onboard a starship. Is it an extension of what the military now uses on its most advanced machines, or is it simply something completely unimagined?

mactavish out.

[Dan Stack]

I mentally view the TOS tech as Tellarite-made. Big buttons for those pudgy hands and big fingers. Bright flashing lights for poor vision.

[tonyg]

mactavish,

No, not Enterprise, but I suspect you will look back at TNG as say things like, "That model looks fake. Why do the they always use the same stock footage? I can see where they pasted the exposion over the CG footage."

As special effects technology improves, so does our ability to spot it's flaws. In 1977 no one seemed to notice the "box" around the tie fighters either, but by 1990 everyone did.

In 2030 people will probably look at the effects on DS9 and laugh the same way we do when watching a 50's SIC-FI film.

[tonyg]

And those Tellarites would need to make things so that they could repair them. In fact, being engineers they might have designd thier ships with maintence and repair access a priority. Probably a good idea considereding. Anyone who has ever worked on thier car could appreciate that. I've never heard Scotty say something like--" Sorry Captain, in order to access the warp core, I'll have to disconnect the photon torpedo launcher, enviornmental systems, and the defelctor grid."

TOS tech is probably very durable, with EMP shielding and the like. Possibly even over engineered for durability. This is sort of like a lot of real world military tech.

[Diamond]

Enterprise-tech looks futuristic, TOS-tech looks strange. The answer is obvious.

The Technology shown in Enterprise is by humans, for humans. It looks like how we, 21st century humans expect that it might look. But TOS-tech is founded upon a much larger society's technological and engineering principles. Dan's idea is good but I think it's only part of the situation. A TOS-era starfleet ship has the design principles of not just the skilled Tellarites, but many other races as well. No doubt one of the early successes and benefits of Federation membership was standardization of technological protocolls. Ask any early 21st century tech-person and having standards for exchanging and dealing with data, or machine parts, or scientific knowledge, is very important for smooth operation.

No doubt the TOS-era tech reflects a huge number of innovations, but also *compromises* to have everything work correctly for as many as feasable. Perhaps the pastelish TOS-era color scheme is easy on Andorian eyes. Vulcans find that although data disks can be made tremendously smaller, they become inconvenient to handle, easily lost, and insufficently durable. Large buttons and switches on consoles are built so that the controls can be accessable by many races, not just humans (who might have tentacles instead of hands). Note that TNG era interfaces also address that problem - with software-defined control surfaces, a race that needs larger, clearly identified buttons can install their user preferences when they log in at the start of their duty shift.

So I think that Dan is right, Tellarite engineering principles are part of the reason for the change. But the whole story is much larger and more complicated - not that we need see that whole boring technical details on the air, but fans can assume they happened behind the scenes (On today's episode, T'pau argues for the Sovan-Mattherson data transfer protocol in the Federation Science Bureau's Accessability Task Force).

[mactavish]

You know, I really liked this thread.

Yea, though it hath died, it still may live.

I am interested in continuing this conversation as my <i>Enterprise</i>-era space station Series is under development and I've found the posts to this thread invaluable.

Thanks again, guys.

mactavish out.

[Tobian]

Well for my part I'll stick my oar in

While the style of the TOS sets looks terribly outdated NOW, given that the special effects and budgets have increased, I still think that what they set out to do with TOS still stands today as much as it did back then.. As in - the reason the buttons look so clunky etc is because the bulk of the computer work is done via voice commands, therefore in thos ships the actual interfaces have simplified alot, and I also agree about the point of mulitcultural designs - The clean lines and simple forms reflect an increase in technological sophistication and a simplification for manufacturing purposes. After all when you are talking about structures several hundred meters long, built in space, it becomes a nightmare to design how these large scale structures are built.

The TNG era simply reflects a refinement of those skills for 80 years, meaning that they could just do it better.

If you were to make and build a Daedelus class vessel and stick it next to a NX class of vessel, then it would probably look alot like putting the original Enterprise next to the Excelcior. because basically given todays finishing techniques the Daedelus would have a fabulous CGI 'look' finish and be so much bigger (and probably better) Ok it's not as 'sexy' in it's shape (using that analogy) but it would have that impressive look about it on the relative scale of things... Point in case, if you put a movie era finished Enterprise A next to the NX class it would look enormous and just as futuristic (The movie era enterprise was a beautiful model! with lovelly finishes and details)

I don't want to suggest we retrofit the original series, but I think if you simply cleaned up the sets, added a bit of texture to the external models so they match, and update those displays so they don't look like they were drawn on tracing paper and projected on to the wall with an overhead projector - they it would look futuristic. You have to take the special effects side of Startrek in the 60's with a pinnch of salt because there is only so far you can actually explain away things (like the Klingon forehead) than anything other than a lack of buget. I even liked the whole idea (as presented in Scotty's Enterprise) that in the previous era all the ships had been using a therma coat, giving them that smoothed out finish, but if you stripped it away the vessels looked shiny and lovely!

I don't have that much of a problem with the size and shape of the equiptment used because as we know today - the size of technology has already started to become moot - it is that size and shape because it is useable at that size and shape, it has nothing to do with the technology inside it. Everybody jokes that the 'laptop' style desk computers are bigger than todays laptops - well quite frankly a micro mini laptop is a pain in the ass to use! Yeah you CAN make a mobile phone the size of a pea these days, but how do you press the buttons! (anyone seen Zoolander!) At the end of the day it is purelly about style asthetics and ergonomics. While it lags a little behind current thinking, the TOS style is not to dissimilar to the style of furniture you can buy in Ikea TODAY - those bucket seats and laminated wood curvey style cabinets - you can get them all today, so why not in the 22nd, 23rd, 24th, 25th centuries! If you think those miniskirts and beehives are silly, then wait another week and your girlfriend will be dressed like that when it comes back into fashion! Things come back round again.

[mactavish]

Well we've seen a lot more in the way of 22nd-century technology (thanks to <i>Enterprise</i>) since this thread started a couple of years ago.

So tell me, Dan, have you made any progress on designing your new (old?) series c.2171?

mactavish out.

[Dan Stack]

Sadly no... Came up with some ideas for Daedalus-class (including some rough deckplans) but the real world has gotten in the way (kids, people moving, getting married, etc.) - right now my gaming group is a pretty occasional thing unless we get to expand.

I still like the thread though. I feel old looking at the starting date of it - my 3.5 year old dog was just a puppy and my daughter was well over a year away from being born...