Where are the slings?

[MightyCthulhu]

One of my players has requested that his new Halfling character have a sling to hurl rocks with.

I'm not convinced that I should. I don't recall reading anything about slings in any of the books.

Could someone explaining why they are absent from the RPG?

Would it be a sling against Tolkien cannon to allow them?

If I allow them what should their stats be? I was thinking damage slightly better than a thrown rock, and range about 1/2 that of a short bow.

Also this player wants to take "Craft: Slings and Sling stones" as opposed to Craft "Bows and Arrows". I'm not even sure what crafting a sling stone means?!?! I guess it would be the ability to "pick a good one."

[Grimbeorn]

no, no rules for them in the book. but i would personally think that it would be well suited to a hobbit character. One of the big advantages of a sling is that it doesn't take up much room, and also doesn't damage the meat of an animal you hunting to eat. At present not seen any rules for them, but i think i run something off and post on here for you.

[Scottomir]

Originally posted by MightyCthulhu
Would it be a sling against Tolkien cannon to allow them?

I've not found slings mentioned anywhere in Tolkien's books, but I think that it would not be a sin to imagine slings in Middle-earth. The reason Tolkien probably doesn't mention slings is because his works are envisioned as 'lost legends' of northern Europe, and slings hardly figured into warfare in that part of the world. Slings historically showed up in the Mediterranean, and mainly among semi-nomadic herding folk typically near the coasts and on islands. The ancient Sardinians, Baelaric Isle people, Isaurians, and (of course) Canaanites/Hebrews were renowned slingers, frequently recruited as mercenaries. However, even the more advanced Greek and Roman civilizations made some use of slingers as skirmishers in their armies. When slings showed up in northern Europe, it was usually because the Romans brought them.

The sling is a very old weapon, though, and fairly easy to make (it is just a strip of leather) and use (although it probably took great skill to master). Tolkien's books describe armies of cavalry and mail-clad infantry with spears and swords and longbows, but it is not unreasonable to posit that the rustic hill-folk of Middle-earth used slings. The sling seems an appropriate weapon for the Dunlendings, the coastal folk of western Anfalas, and possibly some of the Easterlings or Variags of Khand.

Research on the sling that I've encountered (I recall an article in Military History Quarterly around 1990, and the BBC also had a great series called "Arms in Action") suggests that the sling was a more effective weapon that we might guess. Its range was not substantially less than single-stock self-bows of the time (100-200 yards maximum, though obviously much shorter effective range), and weighted shot (bronze, iron pellets) could inflict lethal bludgeoning blows (remember Goliath?). The drawback to the sling is that it is slow to ready (a lot of wind-up time) and requires a good deal of clear space around the wielder (so you don't hit anybody with the whirling strip), both reasons why slings saw battlefield use almost exclusively by skirmishers. I'm sure that herder-folk frequently just picked up rocks to sling at wild beasts, but in battle slings used specially crafted weighted-shot--often enscribed with colorful messages (my favorite is a sling-bullet from c. 800 BC with the phrase "Take that!" enscribed in Greek).

Hope this rambling discussion is of some help to you.

[MightyCthulhu]

Originally posted by Scottomir
[snip]
Hope this rambling discussion is of some help to you.

Very insightful. sounds like it would take 3 actions to use. (load,ready,fire) have range of about half that of a shortbow and do damage depending on projectile. Rocks as projectiles would do slightly more damage than thrown rocks, and crafted shot would do slightly less damage than shortbow arrows.

Of course an advantage over the shortbow is portability.

[Scottomir]

Originally posted by MightyCthulhu
Very insightful. sounds like it would take 3 actions to use. (load,ready,fire) have range of about half that of a shortbow and do damage depending on projectile. Rocks as projectiles would do slightly more damage than thrown rocks, and crafted shot would do slightly less damage than shortbow arrows. Of course an advantage over the shortbow is portability.

A sling is also higly concealable and dirt-cheap. For range, I might recommend this: 5/20/40/80/+20 (just slightly under a bow). Damage is a tricky issue, especially if you are going to make using a sling cost 3 actions! You might want to make it 2d6 just on principle, though you could also let a sling add the wielder's Str bonus to damage (the stronger you are the harder you can twirl).

[Grimbar]

My character uses a sling and I found a website (http://www.staff.ncl.ac.uk/nikolas.l...ons/sling.html) that provided some very good details on the sling:

For distance: ... Slings are different. To get good range with a sling takes practice. With one of my slings, I might sling a stone a bit bigger than a golf ball only seventy yards or so. Ancient slingers with much more skill than me could get a stone over twice this distance.

For how the sling is used: Contrary to popular belief, the sling is not whirled above the head several times, building up speed, before the stone is released. A sling might be whirled a couple of times slowly if the slinger had time, to get the feel of the weight of the stone, and while sizing up the target, but it is one big movement which sends the stone on its way. Anyone who makes a sling will find that they can whirl the loaded sling round and round far faster than they can cope with when it comes to releasing the stone. Also, slings are generally used over-arm, like bowling a cricket ball, rather than side-arm, like skipping a stone across water. A side-arm action allows for greater accuracy regarding elevation (up and down) but less regarding windage (left and right). A slinger who makes an error using a sling sideways is in danger of hitting his friends to his left or right. A slinger slinging over-arm will err only to sling into the ground in front of him, or over the heads of his foes; and he needs less room to sling, and can sling from behind a wall.

For damage: The power of slings is famous. When iron plate-armoured Spaniards went into South America against the Aztecs, only the slings of the Aztecs were feared. The stone-tipped arrows would glance off or shatter against the armour, but the sling stones would damage the Spaniards by sheer smashing force. I have demonstrated the power of a sling by slinging a lump of chalk rock against a large tree. The stone does not bounce of the trunk. Instead, where the stone impacts, a cloud of dust appears, and wafts away, being all that remains of the rock.

From this I created these stats:
5/25/50/120/+15
+5 to the TN difficulty to hit.
Damage 2d6 with -2 to the armour soak.

I am acually thinking of proposing (after rereading the website) the long range get extended from 120 to 140.
You will note we didn't make it any longer to shoot because the sizing up whirl would be an aim action and to actually fire it is one quick jerk of the wrist.

[Scottomir]

Originally posted by Grimbar
Also, slings are generally used over-arm, like bowling a cricket ball, rather than side-arm, like skipping a stone across water.

For damage: The power of slings is famous. When iron plate-armoured Spaniards went into South America against the Aztecs, only the slings of the Aztecs were feared.

You've added some really important considerations to the discussion. However, I would like to respond to a couple points. Regarding the first point above (how the sling was used), this is a subject of great debate among military historians. I don't think there is any clear consensus on the matter. However, I think you're definitely right that most military historians who study ancient weapons now reject the conventional myth of whirling the sling over his head before releasing, like in old David-and-Goliath cartoons. However, I argue that many slingers *did* release with a side-arm motion--to avoid hitting comrades, they simply stood much farther apart (a key reason why slingers were used virtually exclusively as skirmishers or at sieges).

I would also like to quibble the above depiction of the Aztec sling, which was somewhat different from the Mediterranean sling. The Meso-American sling (the atl-atl) is actually a spear-thrower (these also existed in Europe, though mostly only in late Paleolithic times). It functions mainly as an extended lever, basically increasingly the effective "length" of the thrower's arm. Indeed, accounts describe this as a particularly effective weapon...probably because their warriors were strong, and by comparison their non-composite bows fairly weak.

May I also please expand on your discussion of sling-bullet damage? I do not think there is evidence that slings were particularly effective at penetrating armor. If someone was whomping you with sling-shot, you definitely wanted a helmet, shield, and heavy body armor. What made the sling effective was that it delivered bludgeoning impact over a broad surface (compared to an arrow, which delivers all of his force into a very narrow impact point). An arrow was really only dangerous when hitting a vital spot, otherwise it yielded just a painful but small puncture in a non-lethal region. A larger, heavier sling-bullet, on the other hand, slams greater kinetic force into a broader impact zone; even when the sling-bullet bounced off (as it frequently did), the kinetic energy keeps on traveling through and causing bruising and breaking underneath. Unfortunately, I fear that a very broad, generalized system like CODA isn't well-equipped to incorporate this. You almost need something like ALTERNITY with its system of Stun, Wound, Mortal, Primary, and Secondary damage.

[Grimbar]

Those were all quotes from the web page that I found. It was the most comprehensive of all the websites but I found several others, when I was originally searching that were not as comprehensive but did back up that web pages info. I agree that you can swing it either way but my point was that it is a quick snapping action that launches the stone not some long wind up time. From what I have read and seen it is not much harder to load a sling then it is to load a bow or pick up a new javelin to throw. And the action probably takes the same time as throwing a javelin so there shouldn't really be a of a penalty to firing a sling over throwing a javelin or firing a bow.

I was unaware of that difference between Aztec sling and Mediterranean sling. I will concede that the tales of Aztec slings is not a good bases for armour pen. However the Romans developed a special pair of tongs designed for getting bullets out of people. Now going on the assumption, and it is a rather large one, that the tongs were developed for the army and most Roman soldiers wore armour then the development of the tongs would seem to point to sling shot going through armour. At the very least I think the Sling should be more damaging then the bow and arrow in Coda, except in the cases of called shots to vital areas. That or Str mod should be added... With a bow it is the strength of the bow that greatly determines the damage dealt but with a sling, just like a javelin, it is how hard the wielder can swing it that is the greater determinant, correct?

Actually the main reason I joined in this thread was the abysmally short range most people were attributing to the sling. There is talk on the web page I gave a link to of "The effective range of slings seems to be in excess of 360 yards." I think that is just a little extreme. Given his mention of being able to get 70 yards and most good slingers getting double of that easy made me think 140 for long range was good with ranges quickly decreasing compared to a bow... Though I think I might reconsider that for my design of the sling. I mean the +5 to TN penalty to firing the sling is for the difficulty in firing it on the right trajectory. Maybe it should move out in the same increments of 25 for extended ranges...

[Scottomir]

Originally posted by Grimbar
From what I have read and seen it is not much harder to load a sling then it is to load a bow or pick up a new javelin to throw.

Romans developed a special pair of tongs designed for getting bullets out of people.

With a bow it is the strength of the bow that greatly determines the damage dealt but with a sling, just like a javelin, it is how hard the wielder can swing it that is the greater determinant, correct?

Actually the main reason I joined in this thread was the abysmally short range most people were attributing to the sling. There is talk on the web page I gave a link to of "The effective range of slings seems to be in excess of 360 yards." I think that is just a little extreme.

I suppose a trained slinger could grab a rock and fit it in the sling in time comparable to reloading a bow or picking up a new javelin. So I agree with you, in CODA mechanics it probably should be the same action count as a bow.

Regarding the Roman medical tools, I suggest these tongs were not exclusively for sling bullets. Surely it was possible for a bullet to get embedded in the flesh, and these tongs would have to used to remove them. But, I suspect the tongs were more often used to remove arrow-heads once the shafts had been broken off--or most likely javelin-heads, given that Roman legions always opened their attacks by casting their javelins and that from 146 BCE to 69 CE Roman armies fought each other more often than foreign enemies. Roman legionaries were heavily armored, but they had plenty of vulnerable spots (arms, legs, groin, neck) where a sling-bullet could puncture flesh; and Roman armies were accompanied by many lightly armored auxiliaries (velites) who would have been especially vulnerable. So I don't think sling-bullets filled an "armor-piercing" role.

I agree with you that a bow's power is dependent upon its pull, not the strength of the wielder. Of course, a bow of high pull would require greater strength--if you don't have sufficient strength, you can't even string the bow (this is the crux of the "Odyssesus and the suitors" myth). If CODA were a fine-grained system, it might have something like "minimum Strength" requirement for certain kinds of bows. The force of hurling a sling-bullet is strength-dependent, as the sling is merely a "lever" for extending arm length.

Regarding the range of slings, I strongly caution that talk of 360 yards is exaggerated. We have to keep in mind the difference between "maximum" range and "effective" range. It might be possible for a very strong, skilled slinger to hurl an unaimed high shot hundreds of yards, but controlled aimed shots have much shorter range. The reported all-time longbow range record is around 650 yards (supposedly by a Turkish bow-master a century ago), but this was an unaimed shot. Even medieval longbows seem to have had a top "effective" range in battle conditions of 200 or so yards. Primitive single-stock "short bows" and slings would have had a considerably shorter range that this. I would suggest that if slings had a superior range, they would have been used more regularly in the main engagements of ancient battles. Instead slings were employed in a harassing role by skirmishers, who opened at close range then ran to cover behind or on the flanks of the heavy-infantry line.

Great discussion, thanks for bringing up all these points! For those interested, here is my take on the sling for CODA:

Sling, bullet or stone
Damage: 1d6+4 (bullet), 1d6+2 (stone); Str bonus added
Range: 5/20/40/80/+20
Weight: 0.5 lb each
Cost: 20 cp (per bullet), or free (stones)
Note: Due to the difficulty of using a sling, there is a -2 penalty to the attack test. The attack test uses the Ranged Combat: Thrown (Sling) skill.