The perfect sollution. An open letter to WotC

[Dan Gurden]

Originally posted by The Kurgan:
Maybe, but to have pulled it off Decipher would have had to have been working on it in the background for quite a while, before WotC did the buyout. You don't just walk into the Paramount office on a whim and say, "Hey, wouldja take a little more than the other guys are paying for the licence? Cool! Where do I sign?" Then they didn't even have the balls to contact LUG or WotC to let them know what was done, they just waited until Gencon to make the embarrassing announcement. How would you feel if your wife waited until you were at a big party to tell everyone she was re-marrying?

Would this be this weird ideal of business that they keep telling me about? Until know I could never understand why companies in competition with each other couldn't just play nice...

Again, no argument here. D20 is a pathetic joke, and a bad one at that. It's not (in my opinion) even really a role playing game. It's Magic: the Gathering with character sheets and dice.

So that would be a... um whats its name? Oh Yeah... A roleplaying game then?

>Third WotC and AOL have something in common, they bought a lot of stuff during the ‘Hype’ of their duration. See AOL bought Time Life, and a bunch of other communications company while their stock was at an (artificially) inflated high (if they were to have to come up with the money for the stuff now, with their stock at a more ‘corrected’, they couldn’t do it). Same holds for Wotc; they bought things during their ‘hype’ era (with the help of ‘big brother’ Hasbro), now that both Pokemon and Magic sales are starting to go through the floor rather than the roof, D20/D&D (IT BURNS, IT BURNS) is real the only thing keeping them afloat.

In other words their business plan worked. They could see an end to a meal ticket and used their 'artificial profits' to ensure that the company didn't collapse...

I think were back to the business aspect of things here.

Now for the record, before you get annoyed with me. I agree with Some of your points, but the arguements you present were taught to me during business classes at school. Deep down I may not like what either Wizards or Decipher have done, but the fact is that both companies are supporting the hobby and are still bringing in new blood thus ensuring that those of us who still roleplay dont stagnate and die sad lonely individuals (OK I exadderate here, but still)...

Believe it or not THAT is the bottom line. The one with the Profit totals on it.

As for those of us who dont like the change. After all, we must fear change, change is bad. Then may I suggest that if 95% of roleplaying is background and 5% rules.

WHO CARES WHO WRITES THE RULES? This is trek, the background remains the same and the added bonus is that in being a roleplaying game as well, if we dont like the background we can change that too...

Jeez, whats next. A Narrator writing his own roleplaying world and rules? Whatever is the world coming too?



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Dan.

"A couple of thoughts from a random mind!"

[The Kurgan]

Originally posted by REG:
<font color="red"> I have yet to see an outside game company brave (and creative) enough to produce a game under OGL that does not use class/level mechanic.</font>

Oh wow, your kidding, right? Are you a young guy, Reg? Teens or early twenties at most? (And I mean this seriously, not at all sarcastic or anything). In the early-mid eighties the non-level boom hit and there are now zillions of rpgs that totally ingore classes and levels, including a slew of movie and owned property based games. Except for D&D and a few of the more recent rpgs of the late 90's and up the level/class system was almost totally gone. I wont even try to list them here, but you can find any number of really cool rpgs out there that are totally based on the character concept and skills. My all time favorite fantasy rpg is Powers & Perils from Avalon Hill circa 1984. Granted, it was one of the worst editied releases to date and took a bottle of Tylenol to get through initially, but once you suffered through that part it was brilliant. The closest thing it had to levels was the combat and magic portions, and that was a simple little decive to keep track of current ability in that area, not related to actual weapon or spell skill at all. Wonderful game. Except for a few hold-outs, class and level are long dead and buried. If you really didn't know that yet, I really envy you for being in a position of discovering these gems for the first time!

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Save the whales. Collect the whole set!!!

[The Kurgan]

Originally posted by Dan Stack:
[Extreme Sarcasm Mode On]
Due to my limited intelligence, I have been duped into running both the new D&D and Star Wars games. I thought we were having fun, but now I see the light. I'm going to inform my group that we had an awful time. If they want to play Star Wars, they'll have to go on ebay and buy books which are harder and harder to acquire.

Keeping it related to Trek, I now also see how the d20 system would have sucked. I mean, after Ross Isaacs, Steve Long, and Ken Hite had their lobotomies, the Klingon sourcebook would have been converted into - "Board the Klingon D-7 - the Ultimate Dungeon". Yes, I've seen advance copies. The basic idea was you would be 1st level Starfleet officers, beamed on board a Klingon warship. Your job would be to kill all the Klingons, take their treasure, and escape. (Actually, it would be part of the classic D series - from the Vault of the Drow, you would find yourself in progressively more difficult Klingon ships).
[Sarcasm Mode Off]
[This message has been edited by Dan Stack (edited 02-14-2001).]

I'm confused. Where was the sarcasm? Everyting you said about the games was true!
Heheheheheheheheh


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Save the whales. Collect the whole set!!!

[Dan Stack]

Not to put words into Reg's mouth, but what he was referring to was that no one, using the Open Gaming Licence (OGL), has created a d20-based game using the mechanic but not the class and level system.

Basically, WotC has granted the rights to make your own games, though you may not reproduce certain things within your game from the D&D 3e Player's Handbook (i.e. requiring ownership of that book to play the game). Most companies have used the OGL to make D&D compatible adventures (i.e. Three Days to Kill, Death in Freeport, etc.).

A few companies have made their own games - none of these games diverges from the D&D game all that much. All use the class/level system. I believe that is what Reg is referring to. However, the OGL does not require that - the d20 system is basically a mechanic. One could do away with classes and levels entirely - the skill and feat systems would still work fine, combat would be the same, etc.

I do know WotC has granted the rights to Chaoisum to make their own d20 games, complete with rules included - Chaosium wil be making a d20 based Call of Cthulhu and one other game, Elric I believe. I'm guessing that their Call of Cthulhu game will indeed diverge from the class/level based format.

If I were to do a d20 based Star Trek game, I would probably drop the class/level mechanic from it, or at least make the classes much broader. Personally, I think it is an appropriate mechanic for Star Wars.

[Owen E Oulton]

Frankly, using a single d20 to resolve tasks isn't something they can grant license to, "open" or otherwise. A single game mechanism (which is, BTW, the correct singular noun, not mechanic) which has been used in quite a few games long before WotC came along is not copyrightable, or patentable. A game system is a collection, or "system," or rules, not an individual rule. That's why it's referred to as a system. In this case, if a game doesn't use class/levels it isn't using the same game system regardless of the number or type of dice used.

[The Kurgan]

Ah, ok. Now that you explain it I see that I misunderstood what Reg was saying.

As for the OGL concept, it's interesting for me to note that the idea itself sounds like a very cool one to me, but for some reason it bothers me in this instance. Maybe it's because I really believe that WotC is cheapinging the rpg market by pumping out mounds of hack & slash garbage. I know, you don't agree with me, and that's cool, but I can't ignore the evidence. I personally know a huge number of hrad core gamers, and they are split into two very telling groups. The first group is the intelligent, thoughtful, serious group that puts a lot into the game without letting it turn into a geek-fest. Ot, to translate that, they really enjoy the games and the storyline element, but can go to work the next day without moping because they lost a favorite character, and even still look forward to the following week when they can start anew and see where the story takes them. The second group are the loud, argumentative, pocket protector types. They fight over the smallest thing and are absolutely convinced that they ARE their characters. They insult each other repeatedly and will act like college professors talking down to a rather dim witted student if you didn't know that the saving throw was 16 not 17 (harumphs included). They virtually all live with parents (basements are common) and freak out if a girl walks into the room. Sounds like a stereotype, right? I agree, which makes it even more frightening that it's totally accurate. "An elf is 7 feet tall!", "No, they're all 4 feet tall, the 7 foot guys are called blahblahblah...!", "NO, you idiot! Your talking about blahblahblah! How stupid can you be!" It goes on and on. If a session involved actual role playing and not killing everything that moved they'd be lost and bored. "Ok, you see a...", "I throw a fireball!!!!", "....Ok...you NOW see a farmer on his wagon screaming for help as his daughter is now lying on the ground in flames...", "Oops..." Now, as for the new D20 D&D element. Guess which group above just LOVES D20 D&D? Guess which one hates it unilaterally? I won't even waste your time offering three guesses. Yeppers, you win the kewpie doll. It's the hack & slashers. Wouldn't know a plot line if it bit 'em, but they just LOVE D20...

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Save the whales. Collect the whole set!!!

[The Kurgan]

Originally posted by Owen E Oulton:
Frankly, using a single d20 to resolve tasks isn't something they can grant license to, "open" or otherwise. A single game mechanism (which is, BTW, the correct singular noun, not mechanic) which has been used in quite a few games long before WotC came along is not copyrightable, or patentable. A game system is a collection, or "system," or rules, not an individual rule. That's why it's referred to as a system. In this case, if a game doesn't use class/levels it isn't using the same game system regardless of the number or type of dice used.

I also find it interesting to note that GDW coined the term years ago. Twilight 2000 version 2.2 converted to their new "D20 System" in 93, I believe, which they were officially introducing. They called it an upgrade over their "D10 System".


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Save the whales. Collect the whole set!!!

[Dan Stack]

While I'm interested in discussing the d20 and OGL thing a bit more, it is a bit off-topic for here. So, if no one minds, I've moved some stuff over to the general chat area: http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/For...ML/000381.html

[REG]

<font color="red">Maybe it's because I really believe that WotC is cheapinging the rpg market by pumping out mounds of hack & slash garbage.</font>

Call it what you will. For me, it was an easy avenue to get into role-playing game in the first place. I don't see the whole hack-and-slash dungeon crawl as belittling as I see with White Wolf's Storyteller system.

Nor do I belong to some elitist society of the RPG community looking down on those "kiddie" stuff RPG. In fact, the reason why I got into this is because I thought this was a community with shared interest in the RPG hobby. Boy was I wrong.

I enjoy good story-based RPG as the next guy, as much as I enjoy hacking and slashing in a dungeon crawl adventure just for the fun of it. And I still enjoy both to this day. And that's what it all comes down to it: having fun.

The rule system should not always associate to certain types of games and therefore limit itself, IMHO.

P.S. I will comment on one post that refers to my "youthfulness." For now I will take it as a compliment (being that I'm over 30 and all). But if your intention is to attack me... <font color="red">DON'T.</font>

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Anyhoo, just some random thoughts...

[Paul]

Hear, hear, REG.

The whole premise behind a gaming system is to give you, the GM, and you, the players, a guide as to how to run/play the game.

The rules and mechanics presented in any rulebook are not carved in stone; they are not inflexible. As most game designers will tell you, if you happen to be in a position to ask: if you don't like or agree with a specific rule in the rulebook, then don't use it.

Over the years we have seen many games come out, all working in a similar setting, all in a similar genre, and all using different game mechanics. What does that tell you? That not even the game designers (as a collective group) can come up with a definitive guide for how the setting should be run.

So, given that there are so many differing opinions as to how a genre should be run, doesn't it stand to reason that you (the GM) have some latitude to change and modify rules to suit your own style?

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How do I set a Laser Printer to stun?

[This message has been edited by Paul (edited 02-15-2001).]