1st Age Magic

[Green]

This is mainly sprouting off a few of the ideas I put in this thread regarding adjusting the magic system of the LotR RPG to the First Age. I particularly agree with Manveru who says:

The CODA LotR system is definitely not equipped to accurately handle FA magic out of the box. For one thing, most of the "Spells" are really just examples of power display from the text that were given a spell description and sent on their way. Don't get me wrong, it obviously took a lot of research, and it does a lovely job of representing a given EFFECT in the system, but it's a very minimalist and shallow magic system because there's no HOW, WHY, etc. of magic or of these powers, it's just a list of wacky special effects as written. It works well enough to reproduce certain effects that readers encountered in the books, but doesn't really try to do more than that most of the time. I think a truely flavourful, faithful, and evocative First Age game would require an overhauled magic system.

With this system, I want to provide a system for more flexible and (potentially) more potent magic while staying within the basic framework of Tolkien's ideas yet staying as close to the current system as possible without just having spell lists. Any comments you have that can help me achieve this goal are more than welcome.

This system assumes that the Narrator and/or the players have read The Silmarillion and have a basic idea of how magic works in the First Age.

The gist of the idea
As a general guideline for what magic is and how it works in the First Age, I am going by what Tolkien stated in his preface to The Silmarillion (Houghton Mifflin, 2001). I am going by the view that "[The Elves'] 'magic' is Art, delivered of its many human limitations: more effortless, more quick, more complete (product, and vision unflawed in correspondence). And its object is Art not Power, sub-creation not domination and tyrannous re-forming of Creation" (xvii).

Important words
The Art: Magic. Specifically, magic that is used as sub-creation (as opposed to domination or the re-forming of Creation). This is called the Craft by Dwarves.
Dominion: Aspect of Arda over which a Vala is given power.
Sorcery: Magic used to gain power, usually through domination and corruption. It includes spells of "torment, ruin, anguish, despair, and death" (LotR RPG, 160). Also called Udûn and the Dark Art.
Spell: Particular use of the Art.
Simple: Spell that has only one "step" required to perform its intended effect. Example: Kindling a fire only requires the ignition of the fuel (wood or oil or anything else that burns).
Complex: Spell that involves several "steps" to accomplish its intended effect. Example: Calming a storm is composed of three steps. First is getting rid of thunder and lightning. Then the rain stops. Finally, the clouds disperse.
Subtle: Magic that can easily be disguised as another activity. The activities of the caster matches the effect of the spell. Example: Most uses of magically enhanced craftsmanship.
Overt: Magic that is obviously magic. The actions of the caster do not match the effect of the spell. Example: Calming a storm by singing.

The way it works
Magic is organized into different spheres of influence according to the Valar who have power over these aspects of Arda. These Valar are essentially the Powers That Be in the world, guided by their vision of the Themes. For the time being, I'll call them Dominions because it is more fitting that Specialties and because it sounds cooler. The Dominions are:

• Air & Storm (Manwë)
• Kelvar & Olvar (Yavanna)
• Light & Secret Fire (Varda)
• Water (Ulmo)
• Fire, Earth, Stone, & Metal (Aulë)
• Judgment (as in insight or perception) & Prophecy (Mandos)
• Sorcery (Melkor).

PCs have ranks in each of these Dominions just like they have ranks in their skills (even with the maximum of 12 ranks; the guidelines for the meaning of different skill ranks can be found here).

Unlike normal skills, you don't get free reign to distribute picks how you like. When you first choose the Spellcasting order ability, you get your first Dominion for free and 5 spell picks to spend however you like. You can put all 5 picks into that first Dominion, spend 4 picks and gain access to another Dominion (leaving 1 rank to put in either Dominion). Spending spell picks for more Dominions works just like spending advancement picks for entry into a new order. You generally cannot use the power right away, but you are given access to it for spell picks gained later.

Sorcery, however, works slightly different. While any spell that aims to dominate or re-form Creation is sorcery and includes effects of "torment, ruin, anguish, despair, and death" (LotR RPG, 160), the corrupting influence of Melkor is indeed a power of its own. As per the core book, using sorcery automatically gives characters Corruption that cannot be removed. I don't know whether or not to include the Willpower test for resisting further corruption because I do not like having the characters' moral qualities determined by a die roll.

Learning sorcery is different in the First Age. Since sorcery is actually a corruption of the other Dominions, Maiar, Elves, Dwarves, and Men may not learn Sorcery as their first Dominion. To learn the Dark Art, characters must already be on the road to Corruption. As a character's potency in the Dark Art increases, their ability to use the sub-creative functions of the other Dominions decreases, instead favoring using the Art to gain power over others or to spread misery and death. Sorcerers who have the Light & Secret Fire Dominions change it to Darkness & Udû (Dark Flame). Light & Secret Fire represents the power of goodness and hope, which are diametrically opposed to the ends of the Shadow.

After buying the Dwimmer-crafty order ability, you can begin the process of turning a spell into an ability or simply eliminate the need for words and/or gestures.

Things are slightly different for loremasters. Since their Art is based more upon learning and wisdom than on the raw power of magicians, it is natural that their magical abilities stem from that. To be able to cast spells, loremasters must have 10 or more ranks in the Lore: Magic skill and either the Expertise (Magic) or Scroll Hoard order ability. Afterwards, they may gain the Spellcasting order ability which works exactly the same as that of Magicans, granting them 5 spell picks each time they take this ability. The combination of prerequisites for loremasters and the magician's order abilities keeps the magician firmly in the position of the most powerful users of the Art.

When you use the Art, it is just like making a skill test. Your roll 2d6 + ranks + Bearing modifier +magic-based bonuses (like the Elves' Art racial trait or the Dwimmer-crafty order ability). This test cannot be modified by Courage, but there are other ways to gain bonuses or reduce penalties to the test.

TNs and Results
For the TNs of spellcasting tests, I am taking a hint from the book and using the Rule of 2. Whatever factors work in favor of or against a character when casting a spell works in multiples of 2. So, adjustments will always be in + or -2 for each factor contributing to how difficult it is to use the Art.

Simple, subtle effects have a base TN of 10. Example: a Laiquendi wants to help himself and his companions avoid being detected by fell beasts and monsters as they travel through the wild. The base TN for this is 10, since there are a number of simple, subtle ways this can come about. If the companions are wearing clothes that can already blend into the forest pretty well, the TN can be adjusted to 8 (-2 for one additional factor in their favor). If they are dressed in white court clothes in the middle of summer, the TN will probably be 12.

Complex, subtle effects or simple, overt effects have a base TN of 15. Examples: Vanion conjuring a beam of divine light to drive off the servants of the Shadow pursuing his comrades has a base TN of 15. Galist's making the soil in the gardens richer and more fertile to allow for healthier plants and flowers would also have a base TN of 15 because it would be an involved, time-consuming process, although not obviously magical except to those who can sense these things.

Complex, overt effects have a base TN of 20. Example: Calming a small, slightly powerful storm. However, since the storm is small as far as storms go (-2 TN) and is not that powerful (another -2 TN), the final TN would be 16. For simplicity's sake, it is possible to reduce it to 15.

The particular results of using magical powers is up to the imagination of players and the discretion of Narrators. As long as it falls within the guideline provided by Tolkien (as quoted above), it should be fine. When making judgement calls about the effects of a spell, Narrators should take into account the nature of the thing being altered or influenced and ask themselves how the success or failure of a spell can be described as being easier or more complete without necessarily using mechanical bonuses. This is what is meant by the "benefits" listed below

Example: If a character rolls a superior success to kindle a fire using the Fire, Earth, Stone, & Metal Dominion, there are several non-mechanical boons the Narrator can give based upon the nature of fire. Fire needs fuel, and great care must be taken that it does not flare up or spread uncontrollably. The only thing the characters need to take heed of is not to put anything into the fire they do not want burnt. Taking away these concerns is a non-mechanical yet tangible way of making fire easier to use.

For each degree of success, a spell may have one of the listed results. Keep in mind that these are guidelines for the maximum potency of a spell, not the exact effect it will have. In general, the higher end of each success level should give more boons than the lower end.

• Marginal success (exactly TN): cosmetic effect, does no damage, base range measured in feet, affects one individual, duration measured in minutes or rounds, +2 to a test result, other very minor benefit
• Complete success (1 to 5 above TN): minor effect, base damage 1d6 + Bearing modifier, base range measured in yards, affects a small group (no more than 10), duration measured in hours or scenes, +5 to a test result, several very minor benefits
• Superior success (6 to 10 above TN): significant effect, base damage 3d6 + Bearing modifier, base range measured in hundreds of yards, affects a large group (no more than 100), duration measured in days or chapters, +10 to a test result, several minor benefits
• Extraordinary success (11 to 20 above TN): major effect, base damage 5d6 + Bearing modifier, base range measured in miles, affects a huge group (no more than 1,000), duration measured in weeks or stories, a +15 bonus to a test result, other significant benefit
• Legendary success (21+ above TN): world-changing effect, base damage 10d6 + Bearing modifier, base range measured in hundreds of miles, affects a host (1,000+), duration measured in years or chronicles, +20 to a test result, several significant benefits, other major benefit

What about Weariness?
If a spellcaster fails a roll to use magic, he must make a Weariness test with a TN depending upon the type of spell cast (simple or complex, subtle or overt) and the type of failure. For each degree of failure, add a cumulative +2 to the Weariness TN.

Simple, subtle spells have a base Weariness TN of 5. Complex, subtle effects and Simple, overt spells have a base Weariness TN of 10. Complex, overt spells have base Weariness TN 15.

This Weariness test represents the physical and psychological toll spellcasters using the Art experience when they exert themselves too much. Just as in the core book, Stamina is used to resist Weariness.

Of course, not all Weariness comes from failure. The Narrator may call for a Weariness test even for using the Art frequently or for casting overt spells. The base Weariness TNs are the same as for failure, but for each excessive use of the Art, add +2 to the Weariness TN.

Calling for Weariness tests for frequent use of the Art can go one of two ways. The first and most restrictive is to call for a Weariness test when PCs cast a number of spells per day (or session, if you prefer) greater than their Bearing modifier. There is a cumulative +2 TN for each spell cast afterwards. So, the second spell cast in excess of the guideline gets a +2 TN, and the third spell cast gets a +4 TN. The less restrictive way is to base this test off the Bearing score or perhaps the base Stamina or Willpower reactions (not those modified by racial traits, edges, or order abilities).

Changes to magician order abilities
Spellcasting Method
Instead of giving fringe benefits to using the Art, Songs of Power and Runes grant substantial boons. Whenever your character uses Songs of Power or Runes while casting a spell, you add his Perform: Song ranks (for Songs of Power) or the appropriate Craft skill ranks to the test for casting (for Runes). It works this way because by doing these things, you channel mystical powers much more potently due to how much more closely it follows the idea of "sub-creation" than outright will-working.

Spell Specialty
As core book. Narrators are within reason to ask for a few ranks in the Lore skill related to the Vala associated with the Dominion selected for the Spell Specialty order ability. 4 to 6 ranks in Lore: Specific Vala should be good enough.

Dwimmer-Crafty
As core book, but instead of applying to a spell from the grimoire, it applies to a particular spell the player uses often. Players are encouraged to name the spells they use for Dwimmer-Crafty (if they haven't already). It is certainly reasonable for Narrators to require Dwimmer-Crafty to be applied only to spells cast frequently during the game.

[vgunn]

Green has some very good ideas. I'd like to throw into the hat my version of magic for Hither Lands: Roleplaying in Middle-earth. One of the key elements is that it can be used for any age and fits closely to the true nature of magic in Tolkien's realm.

ENCHANTMENTS

For those who come to dwell within the bounds of Middle-earth, they will soon notice the use of esoteric lore, magic and maybe even spells. These enchantments can only can only shape, craft, or disperse that which Ilúvatar created. It will allow one to command the mind, Hroä (body), and Feä (spirit): to change; protect; harm or heal. But it will not allow them to create something out of nothing. As a substance it is the invisible embodiment of the Will of Ilúvatar. The seen world may not notice the subtle nature of these enchantments at work, yet it is capable of sweeping the unlikeliest of folk into the most extraordinary of adventures.

Words to describe wielders of such spells, lore and magic are commonplace amongst the lexicon of Middle-earth. There were wizards and conjurors. Also mentioned were magicians and the foulcraft of sorcerers. Heard too were seers and necromancers. There were enchanters and lore-masters, sages and healers. Some looked to the stars while others studied alchemy. Tales told of Dwarven crafters who wrought mighty enchantments whilst singing in the smithies of their mountain halls. There were even those who were skin-changers.

How is possible to place each of them into a set of defined powers? For instance, delineate the innate ability of a Beorning to turn into a bear, yet seldom – if ever – allow him to work any other form of magic. Placing such terms into highly specific categories is no easy task.

It must also be remembered that in Middle-earth the word “Spell” or “Lore” does not always mean magic, think of it as a broad term for a work of wonder. Some of what appears to be magic is really lore. This is a learned skill by which the natural properties of things may be combined with certain techniques to produce magical artifacts, devices, and crafts.





SPELL-CRAFT

A Spell is a predefined, verbal invocation designed for a specific effect. It is the simplest form of Enchantment. Often times it can be used in conjunction with Lore or through the innate magic of the Eldar, Maiar, or those rare individuals who were Gifted with this ability. The Doors of Durin, located at the West-gate of Moria, were just one example. They were enchanted through Lore-Craft and could be opened with a Spell. The Blades of the Westernesse, found in the tombs of the Barrow Downs, were made with Lore-Craft and Spells placed upon them.

LORE-CRAFT

Through knowledge and study the creation of wondrous items such as the Helm of Hador or the Palantír were crafted with Lore. This practice of taking inherent qualities and creating objects is slow, laborious and is quite distinct from magic in Middle-earth. Lore-Craft is a more difficult form of Enchantment and there are few races who have mastered this talent. It is the Noldor who are among the greatest users of Lore-Craft and, to a lesser extent, the Dwarves.

DWIMMER-CRAFT

It is only the Elves, Maiar, and the handful of select, Gifted individuals who are able to use magic in Middle-earth. Dwimmer-Craft is the greatest, most powerful form of Enchantment. This art is more effortless, more quick, and more complete than Spell-Craft or Lore-Craft. This capacity is something others in Middle-earth cannot deliver, for it exceeds Mortal limitations. It is a sub-creative faculty that reduces time to the point of instantaneous creation of effect from thought. Dwimmer-Craft can be combined with the lesser forms of Enchantment.





SUB-CREATION

The inherent basis of the three types of Enchantment is called Sub-Creation. This is the source for the holistic design of Middle-earth and the manner from which all of these mystical illuminations are manifested. The font of Sub-Creation comes in four forms – Creation (Light) or Destruction (Shadow); and Preservation (Light) or Domination (Shadow). All Spells, Lore, and Dwimmer-Craft (magic) will take effect from one of these four sources of Sub-Creation.

INTENT AND PURPOSE

Though the forms and methods of Sub-Creation are many and varied, all are bound to the common themes of Intent and Purpose. The premise is that Enchantment (in and of itself) has an open design, neither for good or evil, until these principles have been applied. For instance, Lembas or Elvish Waybread – made by one of the Sindar of Lorien, would have an Intent of Preservation and a Purpose of healing and nourishment. Each task is assigned a power level, which is dependant upon the desired effect. The stronger an Intent, the more difficult it is to complete the task successfully. Remember that Enchantments are subject to the limitations mentioned earlier; the scope of the Purpose cannot go beyond these barriers to accomplish all needs.

METHOD

What of the Words of Command, Songs of Wizardry, or Runes of Power that are cited from the annals of Arda? The delivery of Enchantment is done through one or more of these three methods: Speaking; Singing or Shaping. No single method is greater than another; it is merely the manner in which one chooses to convey the Intent and Purpose of Sub-Creation.





MATERIAL

Once the Intent, Purpose and Method of the Enchantment have been determined, there is still the matter of Material. As mentioned earlier, Sub-Creation is limited; it cannot merely make something out of nothing. There are a diverse range of components which may be required for any tangible Enchantment. For instance, Moon-letters – the secret runes of the Dwarfsmiths were written with silver pens and used a material made from Mithril – called Ithildin.

TIME AND EFFECT

Enchantments are unique; some may call for one to utter a specific phrase, for others still, a complicated chant or a lengthy ritual. All such things do require Time. This measure can come in nearly an instant or a few short seconds to longer periods of hours, days or possibly even weeks and months.

As the range of time for an Enchantment can be infinite in variation, so too can be the effects. Some Enchantments are designed to affect a single being or thing. Others may have variable effects which are intended for multiple objects. Enchantments may have a lasting or permanent Effect. The greater intensity of the desired result is more difficult it is to attain.

RESONANCE

Middle-earth is a place full of Enchantment. Often times this subtle nature will echo out from strong emotion or power. It is a Resonance that mirrors an action. Just as Corruption and Taint can cause ruin to an individual, Resonance may shape the very land to this will. The sanctuaries of Lothlorien and Rivendell are a reflection of goodness, while the blight of the Dead Marshes is a mirror of tragedy and loss.





EXCLUSION

Not all of the races in Hither Lands have the ability to use Enchantments. Heard most often are the Eldar and the Dwarves who weaved into the stories of Middle-earth mystical deeds or the smithing of significant artifacts. Not often has the Race of Men, especially lines of lesser blood, been blessed with the power of Sub-Creation. Hobbits have neither magic about them nor are they capable of using any of the three crafts of Enchantment.

As are the Qualities and Skills limited by race in Hither Lands, so too does this rule apply in the art of Enchantment. It must be remembered that there are only a few examples of Men who actually worked any of these crafts. High Men or Middle Men must take the Gift of x-Craft to have any abilities in Enchantment. A Narrator must also keep in mind that this indeed a rare gift and not to be given without purpose if they so wish to remain faithful to the true spirit of Middle-earth.

CRAFT LEVEL LIMITATIONS
RACE SPELL LORE DWIMMER
Noldor 12 12 12
Sindar 11 10 11
Silvan 10 8 10
Dwarf 9 11 -
High Men * 8 9 9
Middle Men ** 7 7 -

* High Men – Gift of x-Craft Required
** Middle Men – Gift of x-Craft Required

As an optional rule the races listed below may start the game with these free levels.

INITIAL LEVELS IN CRAFT BY RACE
RACE SPELL LORE DWIMMER
Noldor 4 4 3
Sindar 3 2 2
Silvan 2 1 1
Dwarf 1 3 -






COSTS OF ENCHANTMENT

There are cost differences for advancement in each level of the three crafts. Some races are quicker to learn and/or have an in-born, natural proficiency to work such Enchantments.

COST FOR EACH LEVEL OF CRAFT
RACE SPELL LORE DWIMMER
Noldor 3 3 3
Sindar 3 4 4
Silvan 4 5 5
Dwarf 4 3 -
High Men 5 4 6
Middle Men 6 6 -

POWER LEVEL

Costs for the creation of an Enchantment are dependant upon its Intent. Sub-Creation power levels range from one to twelve. A one indicates the most mundane and least wearing effort of crafting, while a twelve is most difficult, potent and taxing of efforts. To determine the exact power level for each Enchantment there are the principal factors of Intent, Purpose, Material, Time, and Effect.

WEARINESS

The formula for working an Enchantment is the Quality of Will + the Strength of x-Craft + d12, minus the Intent Power Level of the Sub-Creation. If the total of this result is a 12 or higher then the effort succeeds. Any lower number will result in failure. All Enchantments cause weariness which is taken from Fortitude. This loss is equal to the Intent Power Level if successful, or double the amount if failed. It is a critical error in judgment to go beyond one’s total Fortitude amount. Should this occur a point of Will is first burned away and then any further points are reduced from a character’s Lifeblood.





OUT OF THE FRYING-PAN
INTO THE FIRE

AN EXERPT FROM THE HOBBIT

‘He [Gandalf] gathered the huge pine-cones from the branches of his tree. Then he set one alight with bright blue fire, and threw it whizzing down among the circle of wolves. It struck one on the back, and immediately his shaggy coat caught fire, and he was leaping to and fro yelping horribly. Then another came and another, one in blue flames, one in red, another in green. They burst on the ground in the middle of the circle and went off in coloured sparks and smoke.…’
‘…but this was a most horrible and uncanny fire. If a spark got in their coats it stuck and burned into them, and unless they rolled over quick they were soon all in flames….’


PUTTING IT INTO CONTEXT

In the dire scene described in part Gandalf created an Enchantment which he then used to thwart the advances of the Wargs, who had trapped the group in a tree. Had it not been for this mystical action, Mr. Baggins and the Dwarves may not have survived the encounter.

So how does Hither Lands take the Wizard’s effort and place it into the context of the game?

NAME: Colour-Flame
CRAFT: Dwimmer
INTENT: Creation (5)
PURPOSE: To burn, frighten and confuse
METHOD: Shape
MATERIAL: Pine-cone (or a similar small, flammable object)
TIME: Instant
EFFECT: 1 x per Success Level; opponent must make a Defend Roll at -2; opponent must make a Fear Test at -2
CORRUPTION: 0
TAINT: 1
RESONANCE: Very Little





BREAKING DOWN THE EXAMPLE

Gandalf the Grey has a Dwimmer-Craft Strength (Merit) of 8. Knowing that the situation is turning from bad to worse, he notices that the tree which they are stuck in may actually be an advantage. He quickly gathers a number of pine-cones near to him (we will call it five). Using the Enchantment of Dwimmer-Craft, he sets aflame the pine-cones and drops them down on the Wargs below.

NAME – Provides a word or phrase to describe the Effect.
CRAFT – Indicates the type of Enchantment used.
INTENT – This is the source of Sub-Creation and the level of its power.
PURPOSE – The reason(s) for the Intent
METHOD – Since we are unsure that any Word or Song is used, it is assumed that Gandalf shaped the flame.
MATERIAL – The pine-cone, naturally.
TIME – Dwimmer-Craft can be formed in an instant and there is also no indication of it being a Spell.
EFFECT – 1 x per Success Level, Gandalf takes his Strength (Merit) Dwimmer-Craft of 8 and adds it to his Will Quality of 9 and then rolls a d12. He then subtracts the Intent Power Level, which is a five (5) and if the total is 12 or above the Enchantment succeeds. Now the Warg(s) can make a Defend Roll to see if they can avoid the inflamed pine-cone, with a minus -2 penalty. Let’s assume Gandalf rolled a 7, so the total is 24 minus 5 for a total of 19. The Warg has a Defend of 4 and a Grace of 5. The Warg rolls a 6, so the total is 15 minus -2 for the penalty which leaves it at 13. The difference is 6 (19-13=6) and at x 1 per Success Level (6), this is the Lifeblood lost for the Warg. Gandalf Enchanted five pine-cones, so the next Warg makes a Defend Roll and so on. After this, the Wargs will need to make a Fear Test (-2 penalty) or flee in terror. The Enchantment is not evil, so there is no Corruption. If Gandalf were to continue to use this Enchantment, he would eventually be Tainted (Enamored with fire in case) and dire consequences would develop. Once Taint is equal to his Will, he must pass a Test or the Taint is added to the character sheet. Taint will dissolve over time (at one point per week) should the Enchantment not be used again during this time. There is very little Resonance since the Enchantment was limited in Intent and Purpose. Now there is still the matter of weariness. All Enchantments cause a loss in Fortitude. The Intent Power Level is equal to the amount of Fortitude lost. If the Enchantment attempt were to fail, then the loss would be doubled. So if Gandalf failed, then he would have lost 10 points of Fortitude. This weariness remains (until rested) and should any further Enchantments be attempted, then penalty modifiers would apply. And there you have the breakdown.

[Green]

*thwaps vgunn with a big sock stuffed with a Hobbit*

I was kind of hoping for a bit more constructive feedback on my own ideas.

[Manveru]

Awesome!! I love these kind of threads.

I definitely like the 'magic resolved as skill' angle, for the same reasons you mention. I'll have to spend more time reviewing the nitty gritty to have any really cogent comments, so I'll mull and post later.

One thing I can comment on right away is that the Vala/realm associations seem like a really good way to seque from CODA's magic system into something with more depth and range, and still keep the useful/applicable elements from CODA (i.e. you can translate the spells over easier). However, I think the explicit associations you outlined need some review. For example, Fire should really be Aule's province, not Varda's (although that may very well make translating some spells over from CODA more complex). Its Aule that is (mortal) Fire's true master, as evidence by the Dwarves' own mastery, and implied by Sauron's own, well-evidenced, mastery of the element (being Aule's former apprentice).

The association of Cold with Morgoth is easy to justify, but is a bit tenuous still, given that 'cool' can often be a good thing, as implied in the text, and almost always associated with 'cool' water. In this, it would seem to be most likely Ulmo's province, if 'Cold' be a province in fact, and not essentially a property of 'Water' (which makes a lot of sense actually).

Another wrench in the Cold association so far is that Morgoth had a part of all the other Vala's power, so he's got his fingers in everyone's pie and is as much a master of Fire as he is of Cold. Cold was just what he used in the North, because it was easier, presumably, to have a landscape covered in perpetual cold and ice, than perpetual fire (which would be stretching the nature of Arda a bit further, and might be more tasking to initiate and maintain, powerwise).

Given Professor Tolkien's of the Morgothian element and it being the basis of sorcery would imply to me that Sorcery is really just a corruption of the 'Natural' forms of magic, and sorta off to the side, as it were. I very much like to approach of the associations you're making. I would continue to work that out, using only the 'good' Vala as a basis, and then have a single 'sphere of power' off to the side called Sorcery, which is really just a corruption of the Vala forms, and can manifest in any work of power where the intent (very important!) and capability resides. In fact, if a personage of already great power, chose to work Sorcery, it may only require a the explicit intent, and the will, to utilize Sorcery in their magic. But that's kinda philosophical and not critical to defining a system, but could be used as a flourish or 'tweak' mechanic.

Ergo, my suggestion would be to put 'Cold' with Ulmo, and 'Fire' with Aule. 'Sorcerous' 'Cold' and 'Fire' would essentially be nothing more than corruptions then, but using the same essential basis.

In this case, you'd have to mine Varda's profile for more to fill in her province, or expound on what 'Light' means. One thing I can think of is her association with 'Hearing', which doesn't make for a very colorful magic province in itself, but could be a jumping off point for something. It's also interesting that while Varda has the province of Light, apparently, it's her husband, Manwe, who has the 'Sight' shtick (external 'Sight', not internal 'Sight' which is Mandos' gig).

I'd heartily encourage this approach to conceptualizing the forms of ME magic, but I think that having the Valar 'stack' forming the basis of power 'provinces' and Sorcery being a corruption of all the other forms; which is a mirror of Morgoth's own relationships to the other Valar.

More general thoughts:

Green's Degree of Success comparison to Effect ideas are wonderful!! Perfect in fact. It's much more in keeping with ME magic for the 'borders' to be fuzzy like this. This isn't Neutonian physics people, it's INHERENTLY subjective, essential, mysterious (as in Grand, Cosmic, Mystery) stuff. Thumbs up, totally digging it, I'm going to take it home with me. ;-P

But one thing that's really missing in your Magic system is a clear distinction between 'Subtle' and 'Blatant' power, and I think it's central to the milieu. Most 'Art' whether Elven or Dwarven (the Dwarven 'Art' should probably more rightly be called 'Craft' with a capital 'C', and much like unto Elven 'Art' but to a lesser degree, and restricted only to Subtle works of 'Craft')

And whereas 'Blatant' use of power (Tolkien used 'magia' to describe this use of power) is 'Loud' (i.e. can be sensed by others with power at great distance), 'Subtle' magic is at least more 'Quiet', and therefore wouldn't register on the Sense Power scope as readily. I think almost all of the Spells in CODA LotR imply either Blatant or Subtle powers, and there are many in fact that could conceivably be used either way, which I would encourage a way to do.

In fact, here's an idea, take your Vala provinces and have them handle the 'Forms' the What of magic.

The associated Magic Lore Skills take on the role of the 'How' of magic, broadly speaking.

Two kinds of power display are possible, regardless of what 'Forms' or Skills are involved, Subtle and Blatant. Subtle Magic represents the 'Artful' use of power, Blatant is 'Wizardry' as that practiced by both the Istari proper, and the 'Noldorin Wizardry' of the First Age used in active War with Morgoth, where quick and effective expressions of power were at least useful and at most essential. The 'making' powers of the Elves would be rightly called 'Art', which was the term Tolkien used to describe powers of sub-creation directed with the intent of true Art.

Aule crafted this way, i.e. 'Perfect Craft'. And along that line of thought ...

Very interesting to me is to note that, in placing Earth, Fire, Metal, and Stone in Aule's province, well, ;-) guess what? You're also implying to me the much more subjective, and 'SUBTLE', 'rovince of 'Making'. 8^D

And, if you follow that tack with the other provinces, you could get things like:

Manwe: 'Seeing' (i.e. 'Perfect Sight' would be Manwe's gig, lesser iterations of that could be achieved by those with power.

Varda: 'Hearing' (i.e. 'Perfect Hearing', which sounds really stupid, shucks. Hmmm, may have to determine the Quenya equivalents of all the magic Provinces just to work around this ;-); and frankly I know there's all kinds of other ideas in Varda's profile, I'd just need to sit down myself and review.

... etc. Lots to explore here, me'thinks.

And why not incorporate the non-Aratar Valar into the model! Perhaps one way to do it would be to grant the Aratar alone both 'Form' and 'Spirit/Subtle' provinces (i.e. they have more direct power over the World, and the Lesser Valar are concerned really more with somewhat narrow aspects of Spirit, made manifest and personified in them), but the other Valar might only have 'Spirit/Subtle' provinces. So Tulkas could have a province having something to do with Fearlessness, possibly Mirth and Steadfastness as well. Does it hurt yet! ;-P

And if you don't do something with that I'm never speaking with you again. *pout*

[Manveru]

Had another thought about how to descibe the relative magical 'Noise' difference between Blatant and Subtle effects:

To use a mechanical analogy: 'Bang' and 'Hum'. i.e. a loud bang/explosion (of whatever relative size) vs. background 'hum' (as of equipment operating, of whatever relative size).

With respect to the distinction between 'Blatant' and 'Subtle' magic itself, mechanically, my first instinct would be to broadly define the distinctions this way:

1) 'Subtle' magic affects Fea (Spirit), than Hroa (Matter), and Blatant Magic more easily affects (and ususally is intended to effect) Matter. This seems to fit the illustrations and essays/thoughts of power in the text and Letters, etc..

2) Why? Let's say that Fea (Spirit) has less magical 'Inertia' than Hroa (Matter) with regard to 'Subtle' magic power. So 'Subtle' effects aimed at matter take a lot of time, work, and energy to coax into being (can you say 'Art' and 'Craft'), but conversely, they'll last much longer, and depending on their power, may even Resonate (I like that term a lot actually, it also fits the Musical paradigm of creation nicely). 'Subtle' magic may, however, be worked upon the Spirit realm more quickly, though with no less effort. Also, the physcial component would not seem to be at all a necessity to working 'Subtle' 'Spirit' magic, merely the ability and the will (and practice, practice, practice! i.e. Skill/Lore! Tada!).

Sidenote: Come to think of it, maybe it would be cool to have the Magical 'Skills' work pretty much just like Skills, but distinguish the group with the designation 'Art'. This runs into a pothole when we consider what we do with Dwarven 'Craft' in this context, but again, Sindarin/Quenya could come to the rescue here. 'Dwarven Crafts' could be distinquished by naming the relevent craft skill (or appending it) on the character sheet with the Sindarin equivalent (I found a number of these, have to dig them up). Khuzdul would be just lovely, but I'm less confident enough of it could be drummed up to serve. It also makes some liguistic sense in that the formative days of the Dwarves in NW ME (before and during the First Age) were nextdoor to the Sindar of Beleriand, and later the Noldor returned from Aman. Sindarin was the 'Common Tongue' of the First Age, certainly, and only became displaced by Westron toward the end of the Second Age, I'm guessing. On the other hand this is really all just a needles flourish. :-) Back to my more intentional thoughts ...

3) 'Blatant' magic, by nature and definition, is taking firm hold of some power and chucking into the world, driven by will and shaped by thought and intent. It's very loud, wasteful, and shortlived, although effects/results may only change naturally (i.e. Fire created with 'Blatant' magic may not burn beyond Fire's natural inclination to burn, without extended and costly application of will and power.

As a rule, it seems to me that 'Subtle' effects are more unconcious, intangeble, and 'fuzzy' than 'Blatant' effects, by and large. Particularily the 'Spirit' kind. I don't know what this could mean mechanically, but it's a philosophical point at least. I think it would come into play more with 'Environmental' (read: Narrator generated, plot device type) Subtle magic, and color a given role-playing scene more so than impact it directly. *gabber on blissfully*

BTW, I'm really impressed with the points of reference and distinctions that vgunn illustrated, a really good, graspable, workable, concept map, imho. :-)

P.S. sorry for all the typos in my prior post *tsk*

[Manveru]

I was thinking about the notion of calling the 'magical' Skills, Lore: Arts, like so:

Lore: Art: Secret Fire (specialty)

Or something like that, you could tweak the tiers up or down. Ok, now, this Skill is used for both knowing Tests AND casting Tests for magic associated with a given Lore: Art Skill.

However, although it makes sense that both Loremasters and Magicians (whatever they're called, its basically Innate and Learned magic users) would be able to make Lore tests backed up by their prowess in Magic use, this breaks the really cool distinction Green made with Loremasters, so perhaps you could have two different Skills again:

Lore: Magic: Secret Fire (specialty) for Loremasters and

Art: Secret Fire (specialty) for Magicians.

Both Skills are used for Lore and Casting tests associated with a given Skill. The difference is that the Lore: Magic Skill is better at Lore than it is at Casting (somehow, help me out here ;-), and vice versa for Art (which inherently implies intuitive understanding).

Now, here's a question: can a character have both? *cry* Ok, I'm working on it. Hmmm, maybe use the above distinciton, BUT make Lore only used for Lore and Art only used for Art, and have a cross-requisite such as:

Magicians cannot have a Lore Skill higher than their Art Skill, and Loremasters cannot have an Art Skill higher than their Lore skill. Hmmm ... makes sense and reflects the Learned vs. Intuitive/Innate distinction.

Cheerfully rambling! (It's all I have time for anymore anyway :-\ )

[Green]

Manveru: As far as associating Aulë with fire instead of Varda, it's probably worth going into. After reading some very interesting things in Morgoth's Ring* and taking into account what you have said, I'd probably change Aulë's and Varda's specialties to this:

Aulë: Earth, Fire, Stone, Metal
Varda: Light, Secret Fire

I see your point about sorcery being corruptions of other ideas. However, I think that it still warrants its own category, if only to show how potent the force of corruption is. I'd probably make it so that Maiar, Elves, Dwarves, and Men do not learn sorcery as their initial Art/Craft. Since sorcery is a corruption, I'd say that prior to getting that specialty, you must have one other specialty and some degree of Corruption. So, no 0-advancement sorcerers will be walking around. The good thing (if it can be called that) is that characters can become Corrupt very quickly if they take to sorcery.

Mechanically, I think linking sorcery to Discord and Domination would be a good start. This does make the range of powers much broader than those of the other Valar, but that is the point. Melkor was more powerful than all of them combined (at least, before he was fixed to one form), and his power is woven into the fabric of Arda itself. I could probably write something suggesting that rather than sub-creation, sorcery can only corrupt the things that already are. Depending upon the Specialties a character has, that means they could make their own fell beasts and creatures of Shadow, spread lies and deceit effortlessly, turn light and flame into darkness and cold, etc.

While the distinction between Blatant and Subtle Magic is great flavor-wise, mechanically there is little I can do with it aside from making it more difficult to use Blatant Magic and/or make it easier to be corrupted by using it too often or to dominate. In addition, by making magic "skills" come from spell picks instead of advanement picks spent in Lore: Magic, I hope to emphasize how using magic is different from using mundane abilities.

As far as incorporating the Lesser Valar, I thought about it but decided that their hand in the manifestation of the Vision of Arda was decidedly less than those of the Aratar. Their powers are really confined only to themselves. System-wise, I don't know what I'd do with them. As a point of preference, I don't like to include something when I don't even have a general idea of what I'd do with it. It's better to come up with something more solid the first time than try to correct a half-hearted attempt.

As far as having the Magic Lore skills represent the theory and the Specialties represent practice, while I can see where you're coming from, that's not really what I want to do with this new system. Except in cases of extremely potent magic being involved (like the silmarils, the Nauglamir, and perhaps the swords that Eö made), it seems that knowing how magic works is not particularly important to being able to use it in most cases.

While I can appreciate your ideas from a player and Narrator perspective, as a designer, I'm rather lukewarm about them. Please understand I mean no disrespect. I definitely understand the intent to be more in keeping with the flavor of First Age magic, but at the same time, I have to be pragmatic. When I created this revision, it was because I wanted players and Narrators to be doing something different in their games. Instead of just duplicating the effects of the books, I wanted them to use their own imaginations when using the Art, albeit within the parameters Tolkien set forth. As it stands, the magic system in the LotR RPG core book can't do that. The system I designed is actually rather simple if you look at it. The only major revision occurs with loremasters and with the Spellcasting Method order ability, but these changes are very easy to understand and implement. Adapting your ideas to this system would actually make things unnecessarily complex, especially since it does the exact same thing.


*It was suggested that Eru may have given Varda at least a partial power to use the Flame Imperishable, which had enabled her to kindle the stars and give light to the Lamps and Two Trees.

[Manveru]

Now that I think about it, it may be a needless complexity to distinguish between Elven Art and Dwarven Craft.

Instead, you could do the following:

Dwarven Craft is basically the same as Elven Art, but is only associated with Aule and his provinces, and can only be expressed as Subtle magic (at least, there's no documented example I know of that shows Dwarves practicing Blatant magic).

I'm still very attached to the notion of Elven Art manifesting as Subtle magic in conjunction with the Skill tree. I don't see this having to have any direct mechanical impact at all, nor requiring any additional mechanics. Simply: The Elven Art Racial Ability grants Elves the 'subtle' abilty to use their Skills in contexts, or using means, that other mortals cannot. In plainer language, when an Elf uses a Skill (other than Craft, which is already detailed) like Survial, Healing, or Stealth, they don't perform these skills with Mannish techniques or tools, they don't need to. And Experts may be able to use their Skills in ways approaching Magicians.

Food for thought on the Skill angle, needs work though.

[Green]

Manveru: I see where you're coming from now.

I originally had written my ideas down in longer form, but my window froze, so I have to start anew. Rather than try to recreate what I wrote before, I'll just give you the gist of it.

Since the Elves had been fostered and instructed by the Valar in many things, it's only natural that what they'd learned would persist in future generations. The Elves would get a racial ability called Favored of the Valar, which adds the bonus from the Art to the skills (or maybe just one skill) associated with the Vala that taught them (based on culture; players may pick which Vala favored them most). In fact, this may replace the Art because this is more in keeping with what the Art was supposed to represent. The Art racial ability is more a signifier of the Elves' fading than with the power they had in the First Age.

Noldor
Aulë. Appraise, Armed Combat, Craft: Specific type of object, Smithcraft, Stonecraft
Estë. Healing
Irmo. Craft: Gardening, Insight, Inspire, Lore: Dreams, Persuade
Manwë. Debate, Insight, Intimidate (Majesty), Observe (Spot), Weather-sense
Námo. Debate, Insight, Intimidate (Power), Observe (Sense Power)
Nessa. Perform: Dance, Run (Dash)
Nienna. Healing, Inspire
Oromë. Lore: Fell Beasts, Ranged Combat: Bows, Ride, Survival, Track
Ulmo. Inquire, Intimidate (Power), Sea-craft, Survival: Specific watery environment, Swim, Weather-sense
Tulkas. Run (Long Distance), Unarmed Combat
Vairë. Craft: Weaving
Vána. ?
Varda. Inspire, Lore: Realm (any place in Arda), Lore: Star-lore, Observe (Hear)
Yavanna. Lore: Specific type of plant or animal, Lore: Ents, Observe (Hear, Smell, Spot, Taste, or Touch), Stealth, Survival, Unarmed Combat

Sindar and Nandor
Oromë. See above
Ulmo. See above
Varda. See above
Yavanna. See above

Avari
Because these Elves avoided Oromë when he came to summon them, they do not receive the benefit of tutorship from the Valar.

[Manveru]

I'm totally kidding on the pout part! Take it apart, it's your gig! Seriously, I posted for discussion, not to niggle, whine, or prod you. Promise! :-) Tongue in cheek, thumb in ear, eybrow raised, and wiggle fingers, etc. ad nauseum. I'm very hard to offend, and I'd certainly like to discuss. It's your perogative to even flash nothing but weirdo Message Icons and cryptic phrases in Esperanto. Forsooth and anon! Verily!

*clears throat*

I'm totally down with your new idea on the Varda 'Secret Fire' connection, jeez, if it was anyone, it was definitely her, and it explains so much in the story.

The Sorcery angle is essentially philosophical, but the distinction of Sorcery as a corruption of the other provinces still seems to both be easy to apply, and supported by the setting. *shrug* I do see it as a separate province as you do, but with its fingers in all of the other provinces, just like Morgoth, who created and enables Sorcery. A suggestion only.

But per Blatant and Subtle, I don't really see it as a mechanic so much as a handy qualification/distinction that's fairly easy to incorporate, even into the existing system. There's only a couple real mechanical impacts I can see this idea having, and pragmatic ones, and the distinctions are pretty straightforward:

Blatant: Active, Loud, Quick
Subtle: Passive, Quiet, Slow

It's more of a contextual idea rather than a mechanic per se, and only depends upon a simple fairly straightforward distinction of Fea and Hroa slants to all of the provinces/arts of magic (The Fea of Fire magic would be the emotional/spiritual aspect of fire magic, say, inspiring courage for example (can you say Narya!!! ;-) would fall in here, whereas the Hroa of Fire magic would be the aspect of actual Fire and Heat, such as Kindle Flame). Sorcerous Fire magic would get you a lot of non-tourist attractions in Mordor, and a supporting role in Grond.

Subtle magic can peform both Fea and Hroa aspected magic, but Fea magic is quicker to do, and doesn't last as long as Subtle Hroa magic, which in turn also takes longer to perform than Subtle magic. You could just keep your table as it is and say that Subtle Fea magic lasts one step shorter than Subtle Hroa magic of the same magnitude. Or even just use it as a rule of thumb.

Blatant Magic can perform both Fea and Hroa magic, but Hroa magic is easier and quicker to cast and Fea magic more difficult and slower (like trying to sing Morgoth and his entire entourage to sleep, hope it works by the 3rd chorus! ;-). It is also more costly than Subtle magic to maintain for any significant duration (in inverse proportion to the magnitude of the effect perhaps) with Blatant Hroa magic lasting one step shorter than Blatant Fea magic.

Blatant and Subtle 'Noise' and Sense Power
Blatant magic is twice as easy to perceive with Observe (Sense Power) as Subtle magic of the same magnitude, and Blatant magic can be perceived an order of magnitude greater (10x or something, or something fuzzier like miles instead of yards) than Subtle magic of the same magnitude.

So, take any of your provinces and assume the following combinations for each one:

Province (Blatant+Hroa) = blatant physical effects associated with the Province
Province (Blatant+Fea) = blatant spritual effects associated with the Province
Province (Subtle+Hroa) = subtle physical effects associated with the Province
Province (Subtle+Fea) = subtle spritual effects associated with the Province

Sorcery is just a qualified version of the above distinctions, such as:

(Sorcery) Province (B/S+F/H) = Sorcerous, corrupted form of the Province.

Note: Secret Fire is not a corruptible province by all implications, and arguably neither is Light, so Sorcery draws from the 'Dark Fire' of Morgoth's corrupted sub-creative power (i.e. the Morgothian element in Arda, the basis of Sorcery according to Tolkien) instead. It seems like it would work very well as the Sorcerous answer to both Light and Secret Fire. Which totally dove tails with Green's idea of Varda's Provinces being Light & Secret Fire. Which totally jives with Olorin's associations with Varda and the Secret Fire, and Morgoth's hatred and fear of Varda above all other Vala, and her gig with the stars like Green said, and the Elves particular reverence for her, and it ... it's just beautiful! :-)

For instance:

Secret Fire (Blatant+Hroa) = i.e. Flame of Arnor and like effects
Secret Fire (Blatant+Fea) = i.e. Evoke Awe and like effects
Secret Fire (Subtle+Hroa) = i.e. Healing Spell and like effects
Secret Fire (Subtle+Fea) = i.e. Resist Fear and like effects

(Sorcery) Dark Fire (Blatant+Hroa) = i.e. Blast of Sorcery and like effects
(Sorcery) Dark Fire (Blatant+Fea) = i.e. Command and like effects
(Sorcery) Dark Fire (Subtle+Hroa) = i.e. Veiling Shadow and like effects
(Sorcery) Dark Fire (Subtle+Fea) = i.e. Evoke Fear and like effects

(Hmmm, seems like this Dark Fire thing is rather heavily leveraged by the Sorcerously inclined, which also fits the shtick perfectly!)

And another example ...

Kelvar and Olvar (Blatant+Hroa) = i.e. Mastery of Shapes effects
Kelvar and Olvar (Blatant+Fea) = i.e. Beast Speech probably
Kelvar and Olvar (Subtle+Hroa) = i.e. Enhance Food and like effects (Healing would still logically smack of Secret Fire)
Kelvar and Olvar (Subtle+Fea) = i.e. Naming spell and like effects

(Sorcery) Kelvar and Olvar (Subtle+Fea) = Enslave Beast

See! It's easy! :-P

It can be tricky to distinguish where some of the CODA spells should go, especially the ones that could be argued to work upon 'Mind', but in most cases they should be able to slip right in here. OR, you could posit a further distinction called 'Sama' (Mind) and have Body (Matter), Mind (Perception and Knowing), and Spirit (Emotion and Character/Identity). 8^P (Stop him before he hurts someone!)

In a nutshell, this stuff is all just really intended to help define a practical, useful and supportive _Contextual_ map to aid in magic use definition and boundary setting that is directly inspired by the author's thoughts and comments on the subject. I think it really broadens the scope of what's possible with ME magic, while aligning the operative concepts closer to the millieu at the same time. And Bob's in fact not my uncle, but my cousin.

*shrug* :-) Ok, I'll eat my dinner and go to bed now. *twitch* *twitch*

[Manveru]

(EDITED - I fixed a typo and an omission I had commented upon here, so I deleted the typo and ommision from this post, FYI!)

Clarification:

Since Sorcery by definition would seem to obviate any mastery of Secret Fire, I copped a line from Gandalf (I think he spouts something at the Balrog about 'Dark Fire' when he's laying down his whole 'servant of the Secret Fire' spiel on the bridge, seems fitting nonetheless) and posited a weaker, sorcerous mockery called Dark Fire. Instead of association with the divine creative principal that the Secret Fire represents, the Sorcerous mockery of this is drawn from Morgoth's sub-creative dominative/corruptive principal.

Love,

Manveru

[Manveru]

Aha! Lovely! That's a very handy idea.

[Green]

I think I may tie the Blatant/Subtle and Fë/Hröa distinctions to the base TN, if only to give more of an idea of how hard certain types of magic are. I'd say that Blatant magic is always at least a significant effect. However, I want to avoid the pass/fail type of distinction where no matter how high the result of a test, it has no effect on the spell itself. I may rule that trying to make a specific effect is a bit harder than just winging it. It's one thing to say, "I want to avoid being detected by the werewolves," but quite another to say, "I want to look like that Orc scout we felled a few paces back." Even with subtle magic that distinction is there. Making a sword that will pain servants of the Shadow is quite different from making one that is intentionall lighter, faster, and sharper than what is often possible. I think this would be more along the lines of how Fëa and Hröa are different.

[Green]

Interesting.

I think Dark Fire (or maybe Flame of Udûn) would deal with the forces of despair, fear, and corruption.

[Manveru]

Yes! Those are perfect associations! I incorporated your associations into some additional examples and clarifications of Sorcery a couple posts up (I think it was a couple anyway). I think 'Dark Fire' implies the counter-association with Secret Fire more overtly and clearly, while 'Flame of Udun' is just too evocative to leave aside, so I'd definitely have to consider it for a starring role in a Balrog's arsenal/wardrobe. ;-)

I originally thought 'Udun Fire' but thought that was clumsy and dumb, albeit I was trying to find something that represented an obvious twist on Secret Fire, ideally a phrase lifted from the story's own mouth, and would be easy to fit on a character sheet. ;-)