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Thread: 1st Age Magic

  1. #31
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    Examples

    I created two characters, a Sinda loremaster and a Noldo magician, to illustrate some of the things I put forth in my original post. The loremaster's name is Galist ("bright lore/knowledge"). The magician's is Vanion ("beautiful one"). I'll give a basic write-up of their stats.

    Galist
    Race: Elf (Sinda)
    Racial Abilities: The Art, Beast-skill, Comfort, Elven-sleep, Ghost-scorn, Lightfooteness, Musical Gifts. Sindar get the following attribute adjustments in my game: +2 Bearing, +2 Perception, +2 Nimbleness, and +1 Vitality.
    Attributes: Bearing 12 (+3, favored), Nimbleness 11 (+2), Perception 14 (+4), Strength 8 (+1), Vitality 8 (+1), Wits 12 (+3, favored). In my game, Noldor get the following attribute adjustments: Bearing +3, Perception +2, Wits +2, Nimbleness +1
    Reactions: Stamina +2, Swiftness +4, Willpower +4, Wisdom +4 (favored)
    Orders: Loremaster
    Order Abilities: Expertise (Magic), Spellcasting 2, Vala Virtue (Elbereth)
    Advancements: 5
    Magic: Sense Power (racial ability. This might be changed to a rank in the Judgement and Prophecy magic specialty or just a flat bonus to using the Observe (Sense Power) skill.), Fire, Earth, Stone & Metal +2, Secret Fire +4.
    Skills (ranks only): Armed Combat: Blades (Long knife dagger) +2, Debate (Negotiate, Parley) +3, Healing (Treat Injury) +2, Insight (Motives) +1, Language: Laiquendi +4, Language: Sindarin +8, Lore: History- Elves +1, Lore: History- Sindar +6, Lore: Magic +10, Lore: Race- Dwarves +2, Lore: Race- Sindar +6, Lore: Realm- Doriath (Menegroth) +6, Lore: Star-lore +4, Observe (Sense Power) +6, Perform: Compose Verse +2, Persuade (Oratory) +3, Ranged Combat: Bows (Shortbow) +2, Survival: Forest +3
    Edges: Curious (background), Eloquent (racial), Fair (racial), Keen-eyed (racial), Swift Recovery (racial), Wise 2 (background edge plus order edge)

    Vanion
    Race: Elf (Noldo)
    Racial Abilities: The Art, Beast-skill, Comfort, Elven-form, Elven-sense, Elven-sleep, Farsightedness, Ghost-scorn, Lightfooteness, Swift Healing
    Attributes: Bearing 13 (+3, favored), Nimbleness 10 (+2), Perception 14 (+4, favored), Strength 8 (+1), Vitality 7, Wits 14 (+4)
    Reactions: Stamina +3 (base, picks, and Resolute edge), Swiftness +4, Willpower +5 (base plus Resolute edge, favored), Wisdom +5 (base plus Wise edge)
    Orders: Magician
    Order Abilities: Spellcasting 4, Spellcasting Method (Songs of Power)
    Advancements: 5
    Magic: Air & Storm +3, Fire, Earth, Stone & Metal +4, Secret Fire +5.
    Skills (ranks only): Armed Combat: Blades (Longsword) +1, Debate (Parley) +3, Healing (Treat Injury) +1, Inquire (Converse) +2, Insight (True Bearing) +2, Inspire (Kindle Hope) +2, Intimidate (Power) +1, Language: Quenya +7, Language: Telerin +3, Language: Valarin +1, Lore: History- Noldor +6, Lore: Magic +8, Lore: Race- Maiar +4, Lore: Race- Noldor +6, Lore: Race- Teleri +3, Lore: Race- Valar +4, Lore: Race- Vanyar +1, Lore: Realm- Aman +4, Lore: Realm- Beleriand +2, Lore: Star-lore +4, Observe (Sense Power) +6, Perform: Song +2, Persuade (Oratory) +2, Ranged Combat: Bows (Longbow) +2, Ride (horse) +1, Survival: Forests +2, Track +1
    Edges: Craftsmaster (racial), Curious (background), Eloquent (background), Fair (racial), Keen-eyed (racial), Resolute (advancement picks), Swift Recovery (racial), Valour (order edge), Wise (racial)

    Examples
    Galist
    Explanation: After getting his 10th rank in Lore: Magic at his 3rd advancement and spending the other ranks on other skills, by his 4th advancement, Galist is able to select Spellcasting as an order ability. When he does so, he gets his first specialty for free and five picks. He chooses Secret Fire as his first specialty. At this point, he doesn't have many options. He can either place all 5 picks into the Secret Fire specialty or he can purchase another specialty for 4 picks and place one pick into one of his specialties. He chooses the latter, selecting Fire, Earth, Stone & Metal as his second specialty and placing 1 rank in Secret Fire. At his 5th advancement, he wishes to increase his abilities in these two specialties, so he selects the Spellcasting order ability again and devotes 3 more picks to Secret Fire (giving him 4 total ranks) and 2 more picks to Fire, Earth, Stone & Metal (giving him 2 total ranks). When using the Art and focusing on Secret Fire, he gets a +9 bonus (4 ranks plus Bearing modifier plus the Art racial ability). When using the Fire, Earth, Stone & Metal specialty, he gets a +7 bonus (2 ranks plus Bearing modifier plus the Art racial ability).

    Galist watches his craftsman friendforging a sword, and he wants to do something to help him out. There are two ways to do this. He could use his powers of Fire, Earth, Stone & Metal to assist in some indeterminate way ("help my friend's efforts be worthwhile") or he could use his powers in a very specific way ("make that sword as keen as can be").

    For the first, the Narrator could set a TN of 10 for the spell because of the multitude of ways this could happen, although the caster is not trying for a specific effect. Success, then, can be measured in any number of ways. Galist rolls and gets a result of 14, a complete success. There are any number of ways the Narrator can determine success. She could give Galist's friend a +5 bonus to the Smithcraft check to make the sword. She may grant wielders of the sword a +3 bonus to Armed Combat tests. She could even give the sword the ability to glow when in the proximity of a certain type of enemy (take Orcs, for example).

    For the second, since Galist is going for a specific effect that obviously has a tangible influence over the physical properties of the weapon, the Narrator may assign a TN of 15. Let's say Galist gets a result of 9, a complete failure. Because Galist's attempt fails, the Narrator calls for a Weariness test TN 10. Galist's result is 15, so he doesn't lose Weariness.

    Vanion
    Explanation: At character creation, Vanion must select Spellcasting as his first order ability, and this grants him his first specialty for free and gives him 5 spell picks. As with Galist, he does not have many options at this stage. So, he chooses to spend 1 pick to get 1 rank in Secret Fire (his initial specialty) and 4 picks to gain access to the Air & Storm specialty. At his first advancement, Vanion chooses the Spellcasting order ability once again, putting 3 ranks in Secret fire (4 ranks total) and 2 in Air & Storm (2 ranks total). Vanion spends the picks from his 2nd advancement increasing skills, but on the 3rd he chooses Spellcasting again. This time, he spends 4 spell picks to gain access to the Fire, Earth, Stone & Metal specialty and 1 pick on the Air & Storm specialty (4 ranks total). The picks from the 4th advancement are spent on Perform: Song (1 rank) and Spellcasting. The spell picks Vanion gains is used to increase his Secret Fire (by +1, giving 5 ranks total) and Fire, Earth, Stone & Metal specialties (by +4, giving 4 ranks total). His 5th advancement is used to increase Perform: Song by 1 rank and gain the Spellcasting Method (Songs of Power) order ability. Vanion's bonus to casting Air & Storm and Fire, Earth, Stone & Metal effects is +9 (ranks, Bearing modifier, the Art racial ability). If he uses the Songs of Power method, the bonus is +11 due to his 2 ranks in Perform. His bonus for Secret Fire effects is +10 (+12 if using Songs of Power to cast them).

    Vanion and his friends are caught in the midst of a storm while traveling. He wishes to calm the storm so they could reach their destination more quickly. The Narrator assigns a TN of 15 because Vanion's attempting a pretty big feat, being that the storm covers a lot of ground (while still being small for a storm). Vanion gets a result of 11, a failure. The Narrator calls for a TN 12 Weariness test due to the magnitude of the effect Vanion tried to pull off. Vanion gets a result of 7, a failure. He loses a Weariness level.
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  2. #32

    Looks pretty lean and mean

    Definitely a small footprint on the character sheet too.

    I certainly see this working, the only fuzzy spot is, of course, adjudication. Your examples illustrate the IDEA to me really well, but not the process, the how. Specifically, how to adjudicate the TNs and DoS, which is the whole key to integration with the system, me'thinks.

    And I've just got a weird feeling about the scale of the TNs and D0S, could just be superstition. One dynamic that might get wacky is when you have a spell with a lower TN, a supposedly mild effect, and due to a lucky roll, it pins the top of the scale in DoS terms and what may have been intended to be a mild effect turns out to be something major, and unintended by the caster. That would lend a little too much of the 'wild/random magic' character of other tropes.

    Here's where the issue might be for me. It looks like you're positioning the DoS chart to be able to encompass a fanstastically broad range of potency, from eeny-weenie to chart-topping, and it's not all that far of a leap to traverse this range, leading to the possibility of some weird implications. The scale also appears to step up significantly in power from degree to degree in some ways, and not in others. (Which makes sense, because its a work in progress!) But I'd encourage you to focus on the TN & DoS guidelines further.

    You could tweak the existing D0S table to clarify or illustrate it further, but it might not be big enough to fit your the breadth of your scale and not result in wide and crazy disparity of effects. Another option would be to have a different D0S column for different scales of Power (perhaps even one for Valar/Maiar (Ainur) scales of Power, and another for Elves, etc. ), or based on another definition.

    In a big sense, that one D0S table you have is 'where the rubber hits the road' for anyone else using this system besides you and intrepetation guidance is key in that context. You could take it as far as essentially defining the 'default' parameters of a given effect at a given power scale, as that kinda looks like where you're pointing now.

    Of course, there's always 'good luck' and 'wing it'. ;-)
    Last edited by Manveru; 02-10-2004 at 11:43 AM.

  3. #33
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    Re: Looks pretty lean and mean

    Originally posted by Manveru
    And I've just got a weird feeling about the scale of the TNs and D0S, could just be superstition. One dynamic that might get wacky is when you have a spell with a lower TN, a supposedly mild effect, and due to a lucky roll, it pins the top of the scale in DoS terms and what may have been intended to be a mild effect turns out to be something major, and unintended by the caster. That would lend a little too much of the 'wild/random magic' character of other tropes.

    Here's where the issue might be for me. It looks like you're positioning the DoS chart to be able to encompass a fanstastically broad range of potency, from eeny-weenie to chart-topping, and it's not all that far of a leap to traverse this range, leading to the possibility of some weird implications. The scale also appears to step up significantly in power from degree to degree in some ways, and not in others.
    What I think you consistently keep missing is that the particular results for the DoS are not fixed. There is a difference between can do and will do, which is why they are guidelines and not rules. So, if you roll a superior success, your spell does not automatically last as long as a chapter. It just could, if that duration was a factor in the spell itself. As a matter of fact, the only rule I'd make for those effects is that they represent the maximum potency of a particular aspect of a spell, not what it will be. I reiterate that Narrator discretion is indispensible here.

    Example: If Galist wanted to start a campfire, and he rolled an extraordinary success, it does not necessarily mean he will have a roaring bonfire. Nor does it mean that the fire would last for the entire chapter or story. It could mean that other factors go into making that fire work exactly as you would like it to, although unintentionally. So, the fire could burn for the whole scene without needing anything to fuel it. It could mean that the fire poses no danger of flaring up or expanding beyond its normal size, making it much safer to use than a normal campfire. The only thing the campers would have to do is not thrust anything they don't want burnt into the flames.

    As for sample TNs, this was the guideline I used:

    For all these effects, I am taking a hint from the book and using the Rule of 2. Whatever factors work in favor of or against a character when casting a spell works in multiples of 2. So, adjustments will always be in + or -2 for each factor contributing to how difficult it is to use the Art.

    Simple, subtle effects have a base TN of 10. Example: a Laiquendi wants to help himself and his companions avoid being detected by fell beasts and monsters as they travel through the wild. The base TN for this is 10, since there are a number of simple, subtle ways this can come about. If the companions are wearing clothes that can already blend into the forest pretty well, the TN can be adjusted to 8 (-2 for one additional factor in their favor). If they are dressed in white court clothes in the middle of summer, the TN will probably be 12.

    Complex, subtle effects or simple, blatant effects have a base TN of 15. Examples: Vanion conjuring a beam of divine light to drive off the servants of the Shadow pursuing his comrades has a base TN of 15. Galist's making the soil in the gardens richer and more fertile to allow for healthier plants and flowers would also have a base TN of 15 because it would be an involved, time-consuming process, although not obviously magical except to those who can sense these things.

    Complex, blatant effects have a base TN of 20. Example: Vanion wants to calm the storm. Since the storm is made up of thunder, lightning, rain, and clouds, calming it involves several steps, and it would be obvious to any witnesses that the breaking of the storm is magical. However, the storm is small as far as storms go (-2 TN) and is not that powerful (another -2 TN), so the final TN woudl be 16. For simplicity's sake, I made the TN 15, but in retrospect, I probably should not have.
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  4. #34
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    Re: Re: Looks pretty lean and mean

    double post
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    Elrond for President!
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  5. #35

    Re: Re: Looks pretty lean and mean

    Originally posted by Green
    What I think you consistently keep missing is that the particular results for the DoS are not fixed.
    Not at all! This is abundantly clear to me. What I'm trying to convey is that your DoS scale IMPLIES 'levels' of effect that I think (at this stage of development) can be difficult to intrepret and judge without further guide and elaboration. TEXTUAL (i.e. 'soft' rather than 'hard' - mechanical) guides and elaboration are just fine. There's no requirement to add more mechanics or charts to do this, although that's ONE way to illustrate the ideas you're working with.

    My point isn't:
    "Green, you have to add fixed power levels, more mechanics and make it crunchy like D&D."

    It's:
    "Green, the intrepretation and implementation of your ideas may need further clarification SOMEHOW to be more easily conveyed to people who aren't Green."

    Again, if your intent is just to get something that makes sense and works for you and allows you to work with this subjective aspect of the setting, then this isn't an applicable concern. But you haven't made this clear.

    _IF_ you'd LIKE to present your ideas as a means for other Narrator's to utilize in their own games, either they'll need to work out how to handle the interpretational aspect of this system on their own, or you could flesh out (in some way) more clarification for them. Either intent is just fine and valid.

    To the degree that you posted your ideas here to get an 'outside your head' perspective on them, I'm not saying you're doing something 'wrong' Green, I'm just trying to point out the 'foggy' aspects, as they appear to me looking at it from the outside.

    There is a difference between can do and will do, which is why they are guidelines and not rules.
    Sure! I get it. I wasn't questioning that.

    So, if you roll a superior success, your spell does not automatically last as long as a chapter. It just could, if that duration was a factor in the spell itself. As a matter of fact, the only rule I'd make for those effects is that they represent the maximum potency of a particular aspect of a spell, not what it will be. I reiterate that Narrator discretion is indispensible here.
    Bingo! That's what I'm talking about. I looked at the ideas you had so far, and SUGGESTED that your QoS examples illustrate how one MIGHT interpret Test results, and as such, it seems as though you're presenting these Q0S suggestions as a template to inform and guide Narrator discretion. My point is that you may need to further clarify how and when your Q0S suggestion should be used. Or if you don't intend your QoS suggestions to be a fundamental basis for this, that's not clear (or hasn't been so far) either.

    IF the ideas you've expressed so far constitute enough of a system for you to run with. Great! Do you still want/need feedback, or are you done with it?

    But, I think it could BENEFIT from further clarification if you intend your ideas for the general audience. And that opinion is offered under the assumption that you of course consider this to be one of your intentions.

    Example: If Galist wanted to start a campfire, and he rolled an extraordinary success, it does not necessarily mean he will have a roaring bonfire. Nor does it mean that the fire would last for the entire chapter or story. It could mean that other factors go into making that fire work exactly as you would like it to, although unintentionally. So, the fire could burn for the whole scene without needing anything to fuel it. It could mean that the fire poses no danger of flaring up or expanding beyond its normal size, making it much safer to use than a normal campfire. The only thing the campers would have to do is not thrust anything they don't want burnt into the flames.

    As for sample TNs, this was the guideline I used:

    For all these effects, I am taking a hint from the book and using the Rule of 2. Whatever factors work in favor of or against a character when casting a spell works in multiples of 2. So, adjustments will always be in + or -2 for each factor contributing to how difficult it is to use the Art.

    Simple, subtle effects have a base TN of 10. Example: a Laiquendi wants to help himself and his companions avoid being detected by fell beasts and monsters as they travel through the wild. The base TN for this is 10, since there are a number of simple, subtle ways this can come about. If the companions are wearing clothes that can already blend into the forest pretty well, the TN can be adjusted to 8 (-2 for one additional factor in their favor). If they are dressed in white court clothes in the middle of summer, the TN will probably be 12.

    Complex, subtle effects or simple, blatant effects have a base TN of 15. Examples: Vanion conjuring a beam of divine light to drive off the servants of the Shadow pursuing his comrades has a base TN of 15. Galist's making the soil in the gardens richer and more fertile to allow for healthier plants and flowers would also have a base TN of 15 because it would be an involved, time-consuming process, although not obviously magical except to those who can sense these things.

    Complex, blatant effects have a base TN of 20. Example: Vanion wants to calm the storm. Since the storm is made up of thunder, lightning, rain, and clouds, calming it involves several steps, and it would be obvious to any witnesses that the breaking of the storm is magical. However, the storm is small as far as storms go (-2 TN) and is not that powerful (another -2 TN), so the final TN woudl be 16. For simplicity's sake, I made the TN 15, but in retrospect, I probably should not have. [/B]
    Wonderful!! This kind of 'elaboration' serves the need I felt your ideas so far appeared a bit 'light' on: to be more easily grasped by people who aren't Green!

    In a nutshell, it certainly looks like you've got the 'bones' of a system here (i.e. how it 'works', basically, in the context of the CODA _system_), but it doesn't seem clear on ''application', or how your ideas will 'work' in the _game_. IF that's something you WANT to address, (be that by examples, more content in the magic system itself, or what have) then that's ONE aspect of your ideas that I can see the OPPORTUNITY for further development on. FYI, FWIW, YMMV, etc.

    I have to ask: what kind of feedback were you actually looking for? I keep feeling like I'm stepping on your toes here, and all I'm really trying to do is give you the feedback you asked for. If you could clarify what you are or are not looking for by posting your ideas up for feedback on a public forum, it may help you get what you're actually looking for here, assuming you haven't got it already.
    Last edited by Manveru; 02-10-2004 at 04:13 PM.

  6. #36
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    Lean and mean is where I want it

    Originally posted by Manveru
    I have to ask: what kind of feedback were you actually looking for? I keep feeling like I'm stepping on your toes here, and all I'm really trying to do is give you the feedback you asked for. If you could clarify what you are or are not looking for by posting your ideas up for feedback on a public forum, it may help you get what you're actually looking for here, assuming you haven't got it already.
    If it seems like you're stepping on my toes, it's because I feel like you keep trying to prod me in a direction that is not my current concern, especially after saying that the system works. My focus is not to create a new CODA magic system complete with flavor text and plenty of examples every step of the way so that even someone who has not read The Silmarillion will be able to understand it. What I am trying to do is provide a flexible, efficient magic system can be used to emulate the greater power and flexibility of magic of the First Age. That's all. What I was looking for was feedback that would give me the tools to fulfill this goal. Things like making sure the right Vala is put with the right Specialty and sample TNs are the kinds of issues that I can use as tools to flesh out the system in the way I want to. Flavor text for clarification, setting the tone, etc., is all well and good, and I respect the place they have in the game, but my chief focus here is the mechanics and how they interact with the rest of the system. Everything that you say that detracts from that I am less than enthusiastic about because it seems more like a distraction from my main goal rather than a tool to help me achieve it.

    For instance, it seemed like you were really trying to push the subtle/blatant magic thing as an integral element of how the system works or should work, and a number of your suggestions and questions seemed to hinge on that aspect rather than the groundwork I've laid so far. Although I'm dealing with a licensed product, there is still the issue of artistic vision, and it seems like you wanted me to incorporate your vision of First Age magic rather than explaining or developing my own vision of it. The subtle/blatant distinction you brought up was never a major part of how I envisioned magic to work. The only time it comes up is for the TN "table" above, and even then the resemblance to what you said before is only coincidental.

    Mostly, I'm looking to make sure it works outside my head. Like the thing you said about Aulë being associated with Fire instead of Varda, which led me to change around how that worked, which ends up altering the way the system works, and now I'm more satisfied with how things are. It's pretty easy for me to overlook some basic things that would make a big difference between theory and application, and it's those kinds of oversights I especially want to avoid.

    At this point, my goal isn't to make everything completely clear out of the box. A great deal of the system is figuring out how you think things work on your own. It's just a tool for people who want to use it. If they have questions, I'll either go back to my material or give them the answers myself. If I get enough of the same types of questions and issues raised, I'll go back to the idea and make that more clear, but I don't want to waste effort going in a particular direction if it is not proven to be necessary.
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  7. #37

    OK!

    (rant deleted - Manveru)
    Last edited by Manveru; 02-10-2004 at 07:50 PM.

  8. #38
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    nothing to see here, ladies and gentlemen! move along!

    response to rant deleted
    Last edited by Green; 02-10-2004 at 09:51 PM.
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  9. #39
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    Optional rules

    Limiting bonuses to specific skills
    Each Dominion has particular skills associated with them, which can help tremendously when players and Narrators are trying to decide what types of mechanical bonuses to grant spellcasters if they use a spell to augment a skill. This list is far from complete and can be altered according to Narrator discretion. It would be nice to get some help to define or expand this list.
    • Air and Storm: Acrobatics?, Insight?, Lore (Star-Lore), Observe (Spot)?, Search, Survival (Mountains)?, Weather-sense
    • Kelvar and Olvar: Armed Combat (Natural Weapons), Climb, Jump, Lore (Realm), Mimicry, Observe (Hear, Smell, Spot, Taste, Touch), Ride, Run, Survival, Teamster, Track
    • Water: Sea-craft, Survival (Coast), Survival (Ocean), Swim, Weather-sense
    • Fire, Earth, Stone, and Metal: Armed Combat, Craft, Smithcraft, Stonecraft
    • Judgment and Prophecy: Debate?, Inquire?, Insight, Language, Lore, Observe (Sense Power)
    • Light & Secret Fire: Healing, Inspire, Intimidate (Majesty, Power), Persuade (Oratory)
    • Sorcery: Intimidate (Fear, Power, Torment), Persuade (Fast-talk)


    Favored of the Valar
    The Elves could get a racial ability called Favored of the Valar, which adds the bonus from the Art to the skills (or maybe just one skill) associated with the Vala that taught them (based on culture; players may pick which Vala favored them most). In fact, this may replace the Art because this is more in keeping with what the Art was supposed to represent. The Art racial ability is more a signifier of the Elves' fading than with the power they had in the First Age.

    Noldor
    AULË. Appraise, Armed Combat, Craft: Specific type of object, Smithcraft, Stonecraft
    ESTË. Healing
    IRMO. Craft: Gardening, Insight, Inspire, Lore: Dreams, Persuade
    MANWË. Debate, Insight, Intimidate (Majesty), Observe (Spot), Weather-sense
    NÁMO. Debate, Insight, Intimidate (Power), Observe (Sense Power)
    NESSA. Perform: Dance, Run (Dash)
    NIENNA. Healing, Inspire
    OROMË. Lore: Fell Beasts, Ranged Combat: Bows, Ride, Survival, Track
    ULMO. Inquire, Intimidate (Power), Sea-craft, Survival: Specific watery environment, Swim, Weather-sense
    TULKAS. Run (Long Distance), Unarmed Combat
    Vairė. Craft: Weaving
    VÁNA. ?
    VARDA. Inspire, Lore: Realm (any place in Arda), Lore: Star-lore, Observe (Hear)
    Yavanna. Lore: Specific type of plant or animal, Lore: Ents, Observe (Hear, Smell, Spot, Taste, or Touch), Stealth, Survival, Unarmed Combat

    Sindar and Nandor (Laiquendi)
    OROMË See above
    ULMO. See above
    VARDA. See above
    YAVANNA. See above

    Avari
    Because these Elves avoided Oromė when he came to summon them, they do not receive the benefit of tutorship from the Valar.
    Last edited by Green; 02-12-2004 at 03:38 AM.
    Men are weak.
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