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Thread: CODA Middle Earth Magic experiment

  1. #16

    Brainstammering

    Since Song was a fundamental process in the creation of the world, it seems to make sense to look at sound/music for suggestions on relationships, as vgunn did with the term Resonance.

    One basic definition set that pops out to me is that Spirit and Matter appear to be the two most fundamental states of Arda, rather broadly and loosely defined. Hroa and Fea are the best equivalent Eldarin terms I know of for the terms Matter and Spirit, so I'll treat them as such.

    For this setting, I won't consider Matter/Hroa by the definition of physics, that's anachronistic relative to the setting, so I think I'll consider it to refer to just anything 'tangible', in the most casual sense.

    Spirit/Fea would therefore represent anything 'intangible' in the setting.

    This is the simplest model I can think of that fits the setting.

    Spirit/Fea was first; the essential state, apparently, of the Ainur themselves.

    Matter/Hroa came only after the Ainur sang the themes of Eru, and Eru placed the Flame Imperishable (signifiying the power of 'true' creation, apparently) into the heart of the vision that their Song created (the 'Spirit'of Arda, in a manner of speaking?).

    Some Ainur entered Arda, and shaped the Matter/Hroa there according to the nature of their Spirits. It seems that they could do this without taking form themselves, but there's strong evidence that it was easier if they took on a Fana (form). Otherwise, Morgoth would not have had the incentive he did to instantiate his Spirit into the Matter/Hroa of Arda, which Tolkien said gave him more power over this aspect of Arda, at the expense of his 'natural' Ainurian powers of Spirit/Fea. What a freak!
    Last edited by Manveru; 02-14-2004 at 01:15 PM.

  2. #17

    Actually ...

    It seems as though the fundamental dynamic in 'Art' or 'Magic' in ME is the power of Spirit/Fea over both Spirit/Fea itself and Matter/Hroa in addition.

    So understanding of/attunment to the Spirit/Fea aspect of Arda appears to be necessary to work, sub-creatively.

    In accord with that notion, intent appears to play a significant role in the act, and effect, of power.

    'Will' seems to be the term most applied to the 'drive' behind expressions of Art/Magic. This flags Willpower as a key system element.

    Yet, almost invariably (save, perhaps, the Enemies), those who were able to display Art/Magic power capably were called 'Wise'. Perhaps Wisdom should be another system element as well. Flag for revisiting.

    Revisiting. Perhaps Willpower/Wisdom could drive (in system terms, modify) active/passive uses (i.e. Tests) of Art/Magic. Flag to revisit again.

    I've considered defining a third 'state' of Arda, alongside Hroa and Fea: Sama 'Mind'. I'm not convinced it's necessary, or desirable to have it though. If I did place it in there, I'd define it as 'Awareness & Intent' probably, and consider it the tie/bridge between the states of Hroa & Fea, the interface of the Spirit and the Body. But this gets too complicated when you try to apply the model to places and things (which it should be able to do, for the ME setting).

    I'm thinking instead that the 'Willpower'/'Wisdom' pair might work better to fill the shoes that Sama/Mind tries to.

    So, concept points for the concept maps so far:

    Essential elements/states:
    Fea/Spirit = 'Intangible' reality; emotions, thoughts, etc.
    Hroa/Matter = 'Tangible' reality; physicality, body

    Possible drivers/foundations/key stats of Art/Magic use:
    Willpower = 'Active' direction of Art/Magic
    Wisdom = 'Passive' understanding of Art/Magic (or what lies beneath it)

    Need to go back and fish for more fundamental concepts before proceeding with these further me'thinks (and, of course, go to bed first ;-).
    Last edited by Manveru; 02-14-2004 at 01:27 PM.

  3. #18
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    Manveru,

    These are all excellent posts.

    Please come sign up on my forum as well and bring these discussions with you. Fantastic stuff.

    In Hither Lands the only true magic is called Dwimmer-Craft. Still its just a label so that it can be defined within the bounds of the system. In the eyes of the Elves it would be called "Art". It is important not to get hung up on names/labels for things in Middle-earth because it tends to over-complicate matters. Thats why I went away from things like Sorcery, Wizardry, Art, Necromancy and so on. They are simply types of Intent used in defining the sub-creative process.

    Really much of what you mentioned is exactly how magic is handled in Hither Lands!

    I'm not trying to hijack the thread at all or just plug my game shamelessly - but I will post some direct quotes just to reference and expound on what you've presented.

    DWIMMER-CRAFT

    It is only the Elves, Maiar, and the handful of select, Gifted individuals who are able to use magic in Middle-earth. Dwimmer-Craft is the greatest, most powerful form of Enchantment. This art is more effortless, more quick, and more complete than Spell-Craft or Lore-Craft. This capacity is something others in Middle-earth cannot deliver, for it exceeds Mortal limitations. It is a sub-creative faculty that reduces time to the point of instantaneous creation of effect from thought. Dwimmer-Craft can be combined with the lesser forms of Enchantment.

    SUB-CREATION

    The inherent basis of the three types of Enchantment is called Sub-Creation. This is the source for the holistic design of Middle-earth and the manner from which all of these mystical illuminations are manifested. The font of Sub-Creation comes in four forms – Creation (Light) or Destruction (Shadow); and Preservation (Light) or Domination (Shadow). All Spells, Lore, and Dwimmer-Craft (magic) will take effect from one of these four sources of Sub-Creation.

    INTENT AND PURPOSE

    Though the forms and methods of Sub-Creation are many and varied, all are bound to the common themes of Intent and Purpose. The premise is that Enchantment (in and of itself) has an open design, neither for good or evil, until these principles have been applied. For instance, Lembas or Elvish Waybread – made by one of the Sindar of Lorien, would have an Intent of Preservation and a Purpose of healing and nourishment. Each task is assigned a power level, which is dependant upon the desired effect. The stronger an Intent, the more difficult it is to complete the task successfully. Remember that Enchantments are subject to the limitations mentioned earlier; the scope of the Purpose cannot go beyond these barriers to accomplish all needs.

    METHOD

    What of the Words of Command, Songs of Wizardry, or Runes of Power that are cited from the annals of Arda? The delivery of Enchantment is done through one or more of these three methods: Speaking; Singing or Shaping. No single method is greater than another; it is merely the manner in which one chooses to convey the Intent and Purpose of Sub-Creation.

    RESONANCE

    Middle-earth is a place full of Enchantment. Often times this subtle nature will echo out from strong emotion or power. It is a Resonance that mirrors an action. Just as Corruption and Taint can cause ruin to an individual, Resonance may shape the very land to this will. The sanctuaries of Lothlorien and Rivendell are a reflection of goodness, while the blight of the Dead Marshes is a mirror of tragedy and loss.

    OUT OF THE FRYING-PAN
    INTO THE FIRE

    AN EXERPT FROM THE HOBBIT

    ‘He [Gandalf] gathered the huge pine-cones from the branches of his tree. Then he set one alight with bright blue fire, and threw it whizzing down among the circle of wolves. It struck one on the back, and immediately his shaggy coat caught fire, and he was leaping to and fro yelping horribly. Then another came and another, one in blue flames, one in red, another in green. They burst on the ground in the middle of the circle and went off in coloured sparks and smoke.…’
    ‘…but this was a most horrible and uncanny fire. If a spark got in their coats it stuck and burned into them, and unless they rolled over quick they were soon all in flames….’


    PUTTING IT INTO CONTEXT

    In the dire scene described in part Gandalf created an Enchantment which he then used to thwart the advances of the Wargs, who had trapped the group in a tree. Had it not been for this mystical action, Mr. Baggins and the Dwarves may not have survived the encounter.

    So how does Hither Lands take the Wizard’s effort and place it into the context of the game?

    NAME: Colour-Flame
    CRAFT: Dwimmer
    INTENT: Creation (5)
    PURPOSE: To burn, frighten and confuse
    METHOD: Shape
    MATERIAL: Pine-cone (or a similar small, flammable object)
    TIME: Instant
    EFFECT: 1 x per Success Level; opponent must make a Defend Roll at -2; opponent must make a Fear Test at -2
    CORRUPTION: 0
    TAINT: 1
    RESONANCE: Very Little

    BREAKING DOWN THE EXAMPLE

    Gandalf the Grey has a Dwimmer-Craft Strength (Merit) of 8. Knowing that the situation is turning from bad to worse, he notices that the tree which they are stuck in may actually be an advantage. He quickly gathers a number of pine-cones near to him (we will call it five). Using the Enchantment of Dwimmer-Craft, he sets aflame the pine-cones and drops them down on the Wargs below.

    NAME – Provides a word or phrase to describe the Effect.
    CRAFT – Indicates the type of Enchantment used.
    INTENT – This is the source of Sub-Creation and the level of its power.
    PURPOSE – The reason(s) for the Intent
    METHOD – Since we are unsure that any Word or Song is used, it is assumed that Gandalf shaped the flame.
    MATERIAL – The pine-cone, naturally.
    TIME – Dwimmer-Craft can be formed in an instant and there is also no indication of it being a Spell.
    EFFECT – 1 x per Success Level, Gandalf takes his Strength (Merit) Dwimmer-Craft of 8 and adds it to his Will Quality of 9 and then rolls a d12. He then subtracts the Intent Power Level, which is a five (5) and if the total is 12 or above the Enchantment succeeds. Now the Warg(s) can make a Defend Roll to see if they can avoid the inflamed pine-cone, with a minus -2 penalty. Let’s assume Gandalf rolled a 7, so the total is 24 minus 5 for a total of 19. The Warg has a Defend of 4 and a Grace of 5. The Warg rolls a 6, so the total is 15 minus -2 for the penalty which leaves it at 13. The difference is 6 (19-13=6) and at x 1 per Success Level (6), this is the Lifeblood lost for the Warg. Gandalf Enchanted five pine-cones, so the next Warg makes a Defend Roll and so on. After this, the Wargs will need to make a Fear Test (-2 penalty) or flee in terror. The Enchantment is not evil, so there is no Corruption. If Gandalf were to continue to use this Enchantment, he would eventually be Tainted (Enamored with fire in case) and dire consequences would develop. Once Taint is equal to his Will, he must pass a Test or the Taint is added to the character sheet. Taint will dissolve over time (at one point per week) should the Enchantment not be used again during this time. There is very little Resonance since the Enchantment was limited in Intent and Purpose. Now there is still the matter of weariness. All Enchantments cause a loss in Fortitude. The Intent Power Level is equal to the amount of Fortitude lost. If the Enchantment attempt were to fail, then the loss would be doubled. So if Gandalf failed, then he would have lost 10 points of Fortitude. This weariness remains (until rested) and should any further Enchantments be attempted, then penalty modifiers would apply. And there you have the breakdown.

  4. #19
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    BTW - The main drawback to this discussion, is that no matter what, Decipher is bound to the restrictions of the license. Fea, Hroa and a number of other terms are simply off-limits and by that notion the game can only get so close in hitting the mark.

    Thats why (in my mind) Hither Lands is more appealing. I designed the system to fit the setting and do not have to worry about the constraints placed on Decipher's product.

    In the end you will spend a lot of time on writing an excellent house system for magic in LOTR RPG - but really that is all it can be.

  5. #20
    Originally posted by vgunn
    BTW - The main drawback to this discussion, is that no matter what, Decipher is bound to the restrictions of the license. Fea, Hroa and a number of other terms are simply off-limits and by that notion the game can only get so close in hitting the mark.

    Thats why (in my mind) Hither Lands is more appealing. I designed the system to fit the setting and do not have to worry about the constraints placed on Decipher's product.

    In the end you will spend a lot of time on writing an excellent house system for magic in LOTR RPG - but really that is all it can be.
    Totally! I think that your ideas outlined above form a really great concept map, above and beyond any consideration of system. But for me, this is as much as anything an idle, amusing, exercise. The journey here is as much of what I'm after as the goal itself, otherwise, I wouldn't be bothering ... me posting 8 or 9 pages of stuff where I manually put in the QUOTE tags wasn't just for the typing practice, dig? ;-)

    One of my upcoming posts was going to involve reviewing some of the material posted above, beginning with the Chris Seeman list. I think by just glancing at Chris's list that your system could handle the vast majority of what he's got there, and at the very least give a strong starting point for further elaboration. The key with it, as with any magic system imho, is in interpretation. I particularily want to find things that can help inform interpretion and work them into a system where possible and effective, and I don't think that the mine's empty yet, as it were.

    And I'm too intrigued to not persist in my brainstammering on ME magic, if only casually, although I'd love to explore the ideas you've presented equally. They've been formed in a less restrained context, and I suspect there's much that could be transposed to other system contexts as well. The trick would be to keep the 'tags' and determine the best way to represent the same or similar relationships in the new system. Another motive of mine, actually, is to work this ME magic thread out independently of some ideas for a magic meta-system I've been tooling with. The difference is that my meta concept is generalized in setting/style focus whereas this is fairly specific, with a heaping teaspoon of ambiguity. ;-) I'm interested in comparing the two results to see if its possible to get from here to there, as it were.

    Anyway, bedtime!

    Last edited by Manveru; 02-17-2004 at 03:22 AM.

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