What Ship Could a Commander Command?

[Max-Q]

Sisko was a commander, and he was captain of the Defiant. In the TOS years, Starbase Commanders were Flag officers. But again we see Sisko, a commander, in charge of DS9. I'm sure Starfleet has so many Captaincies slots open, so not everyone can be given the rank of Captain. Starfleet doesn't want to be to top heavy when it comes to rank. To many chiefs and not enough indians could cause some problems.

[Brad]

Our Iroquois class destroyers are commanded by Captains while our Halifax class frigates and our tankers are captained by Commanders.

[SIR SIG]

Good popint Max-Q!
Though he was in line for a captaincy which he got (4th season?)
And a commander in charge of a SB/DSS. Silly really being on the cardie hotspot.
Maybe Deep Space Station need only a cmdr?

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SIR SIG a Aussie TREK Narrator

[Greg Smith]

Sisko was originally intended just to command DS9 and assist the reconstruction of Bajor.

It wasn't until the Wormhole was discovered that it became a hotspot. At the end of 'The Emissary' Capt. Picard discussed the post with Sisko, to make sure that Sisko was the right man for the job.

I bet Sisko would have been replaced by a Capatin if they'd had any doubts about his competency.

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Greg

"Calm may work for Locutus of Borg here, but I'm freaked and intend to stay that way."

[SIR SIG]

Still it was only a hop skip and a jump to the cardassion border.
And a treaty was only just being finalised!

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SIR SIG a Aussie TREK Narrator

[Greg Smith]

True, but until the wormhole was discovered Bajor wasn't strategically important. Nor was it any use to the Cardassians who had exhausted its resources by strip-mining it and abandoned it as being too costly to hold onto.

If the Cardassians had become agressive again, Starfleet would probably have just pulled its people off.

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Greg

"Calm may work for Locutus of Borg here, but I'm freaked and intend to stay that way."

[SIR SIG]

It only became costly to them because the Bajoran terriorists started getting to them.

The cardies should of nuked the site from orbit...its the only way to be sure

Still SF could of used another SB that close to the front lines (before the traty). SB 375 is some 25-30 ly off. Not much power projection if its going to take ships 3+ days to get to the border.

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SIR SIG a Aussie TREK Narrator

[Wizdoc]

Also, Dax was in command of the Defiant when Sisko was transferred to a desk job (first half of Season 6, DS9) and she was with the rank of Commander (or Lt. Commander, can't remember off-hand).

So the situation warrants the commission, not the rank. Though the CO should be the highest ranking officer aboard the ship, not including the Chief Medical Officer who can very well be the same rank as the CO.


Wizdoc

[qerlin]

Something important to keep in mind whenever trying to define the rightness of canon in Trek...most of the writers know absolutely bupkis about how a military force works.

[Evan van Eyk]

First of all there is Sisko who was no Captain but Commander when Commanding DS9. One whould assume that a Deep Space station is important and could also deserve a Captain, heh? But its enough to be Commander.
Additionally Dax commanded the Defiant with the rank of Lt. Commander.
My father was member of our Navy for many years and he often spoke of CO's with the rank of Lieutenant ( full ) or even Lt. ( j.g. ). They even had uncommomissioned personel ( a petty officer ) in command of a mine search ship.
Additionally in WWII it was not uncommon to have a Full Lieutenant as CO on Submarines.
So actually I think it is nonsense to have CO the need to be Captain or Commander, e.g. like on the Nova-Class Equinox. Actually I think they only made him Captain for the story, because else Janeway and him would have not to tangle about command and then it would not have been personal for Janeway to track him down.
But in the same episode you see a break of rule. The XO was only a Lieutenant ( Full ) and did not replace the original one but was it from the beginning. In all other episode you only had Lt. Commanders and Commanders as XOs ( so it is also written in the LUGTrek books ). But actually I think it is also possible to have two Captains onboard a vessel, one CO and one XO, because the XO has to have the same qualifications as the CO. And this is even the case on one of the US Aircraft carriers ( read it on its homepage but forgot its name ).

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"I am a great one for rushing in where angels fear to tread." - Cpt. Kirk, Star Trek VI


www.farrealms.de

[This message has been edited by Evan van Eyk (edited 06-13-2001).]

[calguard66]

Until recently is was possible to have at least 3 Captians on oa US aircraft carrier: The CO, the Commander Air Group, and the Task Force Commander's Chief of Staff.

I believe CAGs have gone back to being CDRs.

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"I'd rather die standing than live on my knees..."
Shania Twain

[SIR SIG]

This is a little something I posted in another thread a fe months ago.


I've noticed that a pattern with cmdrs and SF ships.
Captain/XO/2nd Officer

Size 7-9: Cpt, Cmdr, LtCmdr (E-D)

Size 4-6: Cpt, LtCmdr, Lt (E, Voyager, Defiant)

Size 1-3: Cmdr, Lt, ? LtJr?

And therefore by this system maybe a Admiral incharge of size 10+?


The thread (short) is here:

http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/For...ML/000972.html

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SIRSIG
AKA: SirPostalot
AKA: The MapMaker
AKA: The Trek Cartographer
AKA:...Well I could keep going forever

[This message has been edited by SIR SIG (edited 06-13-2001).]

[spyone]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by calguard66:
Until recently is was possible to have at least 3 Captians on oa US aircraft carrier: The CO, the Commander Air Group, and the Task Force Commander's Chief of Staff.

I believe CAGs have gone back to being CDRs.

</font>

Investigating Captain's rank vs crew size, I found among other things a Cruiser with a full bio on her Captain. (He was a Captain both ways, BTW. Rank and post.)
His immediate prior post was Chief Engineer on USS Enterprise, with no mention of his having been promoted. When I brought this up in some questions on a military list, no one expressed doubt that the Chief Engineer of an Aircraft Carrier might be a Captain.
They also said that not only is the CAG a Captain, and the CO, but the XO will be a Captain as well.

This is, too me, not an indicator of the fact that the XO "needs to have the same qualifications as the CO", but rather an indicator of an artificial ceiling.
See, Admirals don't get ships. Admirals get Task Forces. So, no ship on earth has so many men on it that its CO is an Admiral (at least for the US Navy). Simply, the Aircraft Carrier is so large, with so many men on board, that her XO should be a Captain and her CO an Admiral. Except that Admirals don't get ships.
In general, the XO is one rank below the CO, and most everyone else is at least one rank below that. Just like Star Trek. (Riker and Crusher were the only Full Commanders aboard.)

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You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.

[spyone]

Here, I analize crew sizes:
We get something like a clue from TNG.
See, The Captain of USS Enterprise commanded six Department Heads, who were ranked Commander or LtCmdr (and one who was not). Lets count those off:
Command Branch Head, Cmdr William Riker
OPS Branch Head, LtCmdr Data
Chief Engineer, LtCmdr Geordi LaForge
Chief Tactical Officer, Lt Worf
Chief Medical Officer, Cmdr Beverly Crusher
Chief Councelor, LtCmdr Deanna Troi
Chief Science Officer, LtCmdr Neela Darren (at one point, presumably others).

From this, we can get a few ideas. Modern Militaries tend to like the number five. As in, five Lieutenants answer to one Commander. Since Picard commands six officers from the two ranks below his, we might guess that each of them will command five or six officers from the rank below them. That is, 36 officers ranked Lt or LtJg. Who, in turn, command 216 Ensigns.
That's about 260 so far. If you take the "about 1000" to be the crew, not including families and passengers, then you get about 740 enlisted or about 3.6 per Ensign.

However, there are some things that will modify this.
The Councelor probably does not have many subordinates. While she likely has some Lts under her (junior councelors), she likely has no Ensigns and no Enlisted.
Similarly, all Doctors AND Nurses will be Officers, although there will be some enlisted orderlies and paramedics. (While the Tech Manual says there are 12 Medical Personnel, Dr. Crusher said regulations require at least 4 to be on duty at all times, which suggests more than 12 total.)
So both those branches will be "light".
Security, on the other hand, will probably have a large number of Enlisted for the number of officers.
Engineering will probably have a greater staff than other areas. OPS, OTOH, will likely not have that many direct subordinates. Of course, both Tactical and Engineering report to OPS.
Lastly, Science and Command are likely about equal, but Command likely has no enlisted men.

So, just guessing, I'd probably go with:

Command: 1 Cmdr, 5 Lt, 30 Ens
OPS: 1 LtCmdr, 3 Lt, 12 Ens, 60 Enlisted
Security/Tactical: 3 Lt, 5 Ens, 100 enlisted
Engineering: 2 LtCmdr, 15 Lt, 100 Ens, 400 enlisted
Medical: 1 Cmdr, 3 LtCmdr, 8 Lt, 40 enlisted
Councelor: 1 Cmdr/LtCmdr, 3 Lt
Science: 1 LtCmdr, 5 Lt, 30 Ens, 200 enlisted

Total 1029. Note also that many Enlisted are cross-trained (Security AND paramedic, Security AND Engineer, etc)


Applying the same ratios to USS Voyager:
OPS: 1 Lt, 2 Ens, 10 Enlisted
Security/Tactical: 1 Lt, 3 Ens, 15 enlisted
Councelor: added to duties of CMO
Medical: 1 LtCmdr, 2 Lt, 15 enlisted
Engineering: 2 Lt, 3 Ens, 40 enlisted
Command: 1 Lt, 5 Ens
Science: 1 Lt, 5 Ens, 30 enlisted
Which gives a crew of 137, captained by a Commander.

This should help you determine the Captain's rank based upon the size of his crew.

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You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.

[Evan van Eyk]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by spyone:

This is, too me, not an indicator of the fact that the XO "needs to have the same qualifications as the CO", but rather an indicator of an artificial ceiling.
See, Admirals don't get ships. Admirals get Task Forces. So, no ship on earth has so many men on it that its CO is an Admiral (at least for the US Navy). Simply, the Aircraft Carrier is so large, with so many men on board, that her XO should be a Captain and her CO an Admiral. Except that Admirals don't get ships.
</font>

But that's the XO's job, to substitute the captain incase of emergency, i.e. if he's not available and so Navy policy says that he has to have the same qualifications ( but most of the time he has no such a great experience ).
Second you are again wrong, there are Admirals who commandeer ships. There were Russian ships, where bith CO and XO were Admirals. ( Heavy Cruisers ).



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"I am a great one for rushing in where angels fear to tread." - Cpt. Kirk, Star Trek VI


www.farrealms.de