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Thread: Character Generation Example

  1. #1
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    Character Generation Example

    Someone said, not too long ago, that they would like a more comprehensive character generation example. So I wrote one up, and asked a few people to proof-read it for me before I made it into a PDF and unleased it on the world.

    Well, one of my proofreaders and I have been having a friendly difference of rules interpretation. I don't have the conversation handy at this moment, but he has told me that he has no objection to me posting it for the public so that others can participate, and maybe get some clarification on a few things.

    Once I get home, I'll be posting the email exchange to this thread to show you things we've already talked about. In the meantime, though, I've decided to throw things to the public and let everyone read over the rough draft and throw in their commentary. The chargen example can be found on my website, as can the sidebar it refers to.

    I'd request in advance that any criticism be kept civil. I don't mind criticism, but I can do without "This sucks, monkeyboy!" kinds of comments.

    Thanks in advance, and let the games begin....
    Last edited by PGoodman13; 06-12-2002 at 12:04 PM.
    Patrick Goodman -- Tilting at Windmills

    "I dare you to do better." -- Captain Christopher Pike

    Beyond the Final Frontier: CODA Star Trek RPG Support

  2. #2
    Your example looks good, but there is a discrepancy in the section on Professional Development. You give Joel the Devotion flaw when he is entitled to Skill Focus: Craftsman as part of his professional package. Every character begins with two Edges, and can have up to two more if they take a Flaw for each additional Edge selected. A Flaw is gained only if you select an additional Edge in either step of Development.



    Michael
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  3. #3
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    Originally posted by RaconteurX
    Every character begins with two Edges, and can have up to two more if they take a Flaw for each additional Edge selected. A Flaw is gained only if you select an additional Edge in either step of Development.
    I thought you only started with one edge, picked from either your personal development package OR your professional development package. But not both.

    CorpBoy

  4. #4
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    That is what I thought..



    I thought you only started with one edge, picked from either your personal development package OR your professional development package. But not both.
    May your worlds be at peace. Never assume, that the pointy eared first officer is Vulcan.

  5. #5
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    That was dealt with in the original errata thread. A character only begins with one edge, purchased at any stage of development. Additional edges beyond 1 must be bought by taking a flaw.

    PG is correct in his example.
    Davy Jones

    "Frightened? My dear, you are looking at a man who has laughed in the face of death, sneered at doom, and chuckled at catastrophe! I was petrified."
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  6. #6
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    Okay, I'm at home again now, so I can post the conversation I've been having with Lancer. I'll be putting each message into an individual reply, so I hope this comes out right....

    Initial message from Lancer:
    I had a look at your chargen example and before I go into any details I would like to say that I found it well written and a joy to read. A job well done IMO.

    Now let's see what we have got here:

    (1) I would suggest adding the same "step numbers" to the example as they are give on p. 20-21 in the Player's Guide, to make it easier cross-referencing the example and the PG.

    (2) You should follow these steps during the example, especially when it comes to choosing a profession and recording professional abilities. Doing the later only after the professional development (as you did) can have a major impact on the chargen. If you had choosen Engineering Certificate right at the start you would have gained a Specialty in each of your engineering skills for free!
    In addition Athletics would never have been listed as a non-professional skill for this character - a minor complaint, sure, but again something that runs contrary to the process as written in the PG.

    (3) As one of the Species Skill picks you included History(Federation, Human), spending 1 point for the 2nd specialty. The sidebar on p.85 only mentions that you gain one specialty for free and doesn't mention spending skill picks for additional specialties.
    It might be best if you slightly rewrite this part of the example, maybe to something like this: "While spending his skill picks Derek realizes that he would like Joel to have another specialty for his History skill: Federation History. As this makes sense for the characters background the Narrator okays it that Derek buys another specialty for one of his skill picks."

    (4) During personal development Joel gains Entertain: Play Instrument with a Specialty in playing the guitar. As I understand the rules he shouldn't gain a Specialty for free and I don't see where he would gain another point to buy a Specialty at this stage.

    (5) In the paragraph on choosing Professional Abilities I would somewhat change the sentence "This makes him a Starship Engineer, without having to necessarily meet the Prerequisites for that position." The way it is now makes it sound as if Starship Duty simply waives the prerequisites for this elite profession, while in fact it is one of two possible ways to enter the EP, i.e. it's not simply a 'shortcut'.
    My reply coming up soon.
    Patrick Goodman -- Tilting at Windmills

    "I dare you to do better." -- Captain Christopher Pike

    Beyond the Final Frontier: CODA Star Trek RPG Support

  7. #7
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    Here is my reply to Lancer:

    First reply by Patrick Goodman:
    > I had a look at your chargen example and before I go into any
    > details I would like to say that I found it well written and a
    > joy to read. A job well done IMO.

    Many thanks. The couple of people who've looked it over have all been fairly positive about it, which is very heartening to me.

    > (1) I would suggest adding the same "step numbers" to the example
    > as they are give on p. 20-21 in the Player's Guide, to make it
    > easier cross-referencing the example and the PG.

    Few people have been as critical of the character generation process as shown on pp. 20-21 in the PG as I have, Andreas. This is where I think the Player's Guide falls down the most; I don't think it's friendly to players or to narrators as they prepare their characters. That was one of the reasons I put together the cheat-sheet I put up on the forums a few weeks ago.

    All that being said, however, you do have a very valid point, and I'll be going over the text tonight and numbering the steps and improving my page references.

    > (2) You should follow these steps during the example, especially
    > when it comes to choosing a profession and recording professional
    > abilities.

    I'm fairly loathe to do this, considering how I feel about the system and its flaws as printed, but as I said, you have a point.

    There isn't anything in the process on pp. 20-21, by the way, that says anything about Professional Abilities, nor is there space for Professional Abilities on the character sheet.

    > Doing the later only after the professional development (as you did)
    > can have a major impact on the chargen. If you had choosen Engineering
    > Certificate right at the start you would have gained a Specialty in
    > each of your engineering skills for free!

    I don't completely agree with this. For instance, there's nothing in the wording of the Engineering Certificate ability that says that you get a specialty in all your Engineering skills for free; giving those (many) specialties away during character generation violates the spirit of the rules, in my opinion as a Narrator.

    Even if I didn't feel that way, there's nothing that says one way or the other about when Professional Abilities should be selected, and there's nothing to keep the Narrator in the example from saying, "Oh, by the way, that professional ability of yours gives you specialties in all your engineering skills, so you should go back and add those in." Before the game actually starts, there's all sorts of room for tweaking and retrofitting things.

    > In addition Athletics would never have been listed as a non-
    > professional skill for this character - a minor complaint, sure,
    > but again something that runs contrary to the process as written
    > in the PG.

    Looking back, I tend to agree, and will be rewording those portions of the example related to this.

    > (3) As one of the Species Skill picks you included History
    > (Federation, Human), spending 1 point for the 2nd specialty.
    > The sidebar on p.85 only mentions that you gain one specialty
    > for free and doesn't mention spending skill picks for additional
    > specialties.

    This is another case, IMHO, of the letter of the rule versus the spirit of the rule. By the letter of the rule, you're correct, but I think the spirit of the game, and of Star Trek in general, would make it a more than proper choice.

    However, I will look at possibly rewording that part of the example. No promises, though.

    > (4) During personal development Joel gains Entertain: Play Instrument
    > with a Specialty in playing the guitar. As I understand the rules he
    > shouldn't gain a Specialty for free and I don't see where he would
    > gain another point to buy a Specialty at this stage.

    This is a grey and fuzzy area for me, too, and I'll be the first one to tell you that I am not 100% fluent with the rules. However, it's my belief that if you're going to learn to play an instrument, you have to specify what that instrument is. Unless you're Prince or Stevie Wonder, the odds of you being able to play any instrument that comes along are somewhere south of slim. I took a tiny bit of liberty with that one, since in my game no one is going to be taking a skill like that one and not tell me specifically what they can play.

    If they chose another instrument, by the way, they'd have two different skills listed, not two specialties of the same skill. In this way, I believe Entertain: Play Instrument is much more akin to Knowledge: Specific World than it is to Engineering: Propulsion.

    > (5) In the paragraph on choosing Professional Abilities I would
    > somewhat change the sentence "This makes him a Starship Engineer,
    > without having to necessarily meet the Prerequisites for that
    > position." The way it is now makes it sound as if Starship Duty
    > simply waives the prerequisites for this elite profession, while
    > in fact it is one of two possible ways to enter the EP, i.e. it's
    > not simply a 'shortcut'.

    During character creation, Andreas, it is *absolutely* a shortcut, and quite explicitly waives the prerequisites to enter the Starship Engineer EP. This isn't an example of someone swapping from profession to profession, a la Janeway; it's just an example of putting together a character. The description for the Starship Duty professional ability is pretty plain in that it says it waives the prerequisites.

    > Okay, I think that covers it for now. If I can think of something
    > else I'll let you know.

    I thank you for your time and your comments, and I look forward to your reactions to the revision, which I hope to have up in a couple of days.
    He made one more reply to this before we took it public.
    Patrick Goodman -- Tilting at Windmills

    "I dare you to do better." -- Captain Christopher Pike

    Beyond the Final Frontier: CODA Star Trek RPG Support

  8. #8
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    Here's Lancer's last reply:

    Reply by Lancer:
    >> Doing the later only after the professional development (as
    >> you did) can have a major impact on the chargen. If you had
    >> choosen Engineering Certificate right at the start you would
    >> have gained a Specialty in each of your engineering skills for
    >> free!

    > I don't completely agree with this. For instance, there's
    > nothing in the wording of the Engineering Certificate ability that
    > says that you get a specialty in all your Engineering skills for
    > free; giving those (many) specialties away during character
    > generation violates the spirit of the rules, in my opinion as a
    > Narrator.

    <Quote> "When aquiring a new Engineering skill, the engineer automatically gains one skill specialty of his choice." <Unquote> (PG, p.70, Engineering Certification)

    The only way I can read the wording "automatically" is as "without paying a skill pick for it". And as it says "when aquiring a new skill" the order of things makes a difference, as it nowhere tells you to gain a Specialty in each skill you already have once you choose this ability, but only for those you aquire once you have the Engineering certificate.

    > Even if I didn't feel that way, there's nothing that says one way
    > or the other about when Professional Abilities should be selected,

    I'll have to disagree with you again. If you follow the steps on page 20-21, together with the sidebars that point to the relevant chapters you will be guided to the chapter on professions (right after choosing your species and before everything else), that clearly tells you that you get a profeesional ability once you choose a profession (p. 52, end of 2nd paragraph).

    While I see your point about the character creation process being neither well organized, nor explained in enough detail, I think you might be giving it even less credit than it deserves.

    >> (4) During personal development Joel gains Entertain: Play
    >> Instrument with a Specialty in playing the guitar. As I
    >> understand the rules he shouldn't gain a Specialty for free
    >> and I don't see where he would gain another point to buy a
    >> Specialty at this stage.

    > This is a grey and fuzzy area for me, too, and I'll be the first
    > one to tell you that I am not 100% fluent with the rules.
    > However, it's my belief that if you're going to learn to play an
    > instrument, you have to specify what that instrument is. Unless
    > you're Prince or Stevie Wonder, the odds of you being able to
    > play any instrument that comes along are somewhere south of
    > slim. I took a tiny bit of liberty with that one, since in my game
    > no one is going to be taking a skill like that one and not tell me
    > specifically what they can play.

    I agree that it would be more realistic to make each and every instrument its own skill (in fact that's a house rule for Artistic Expression in my own ICON game), but as it is my understanding that you are writing this example to better explain character creation to everyone and not just your players IMHO you shouldn't take liberties with the rules that way. If you do, adding a footnote adressing this issue could wouldn't hurt and could prevent possible misunderstandings.

    Or at least change the way it is written to "Play Guitar +1" instead of "Play Instrument(Guitar)". The later could be misunderstood as giving the character a total skill bonus of +3 (including +2 specialty bonus) with the guitar, while in fact the character adds only a +1 skill.

    > During character creation, Andreas, it is *absolutely* a
    > shortcut, and quite explicitly waives the prerequisites to enter
    > the Starship Engineer EP. This isn't an example of someone
    > swapping from profession to profession, a la Janeway; it's just
    > an example of putting together a character. The description for
    > the Starship Duty professional ability is pretty plain in that it
    > says it waives the prerequisites.

    Not as I read this. It says "substitutes" for all prerequisites. To me that makes it a complete, self-contained, prerequisite that stands as an either/or option side-by-side with the other prerequisites. It's not a shortcut on another route, but a totaly different route to the same destination.
    Don made that quite clear on the TrekRPG forum when he explained that all SO Elite Professions should have OR between Starship Duty and the other prerequisites (skills, etc.)

    > I thank you for your time and your comments, and I look
    > forward to your reactions to the revision, which I hope to have
    > up in a couple of days.

    And I'll sure continue to play devil's advocate until it's finished, if you don't mind. ;-)
    Okay, that's that. You can see where our disagreements are, so feel free to have at it.
    Patrick Goodman -- Tilting at Windmills

    "I dare you to do better." -- Captain Christopher Pike

    Beyond the Final Frontier: CODA Star Trek RPG Support

  9. #9
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    Unhappy

    What PDF are you talking about? I don't see a link to one or an attachment. Help!

  10. #10

    Re: Number of Edges Available

    Where's the errata regarding the number of Edges available to PC's when the first gen characters? The only thing I can find in the PG is the paragraph at the top of the righthand column on P86 which reads:

    "Once you make your edge pick, you can gain no more further edges unless you choose a flaw (see below). You may also gain additional edges because of your species or profession. A character can thus begin the game with between one and five edges, depending on your selection of species, profession, and flaws."

    It appears you can get up to 2 edges from a species, 2 from personnal development (Genetic Resequencing), and 1 from professional development, totalling 5.

    Then there's the additional one from purchasing the flaw totalling 6????

    I checked the errata thread, but couldn't see anything relating to this.

    Cheers

    Dr Nick

  11. #11
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    Okay, now you have the complete conversation between Patrick and myself at your fingertips. We'd both be happy if y'all could give us some feedback.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Dr. Nick: What RaconteurX was talking about (see above) was the Development part of the character creation. And his statement that you gain 2 edges during that stage and can choose 2 more if you take a flaw for each isn't correct, as the paragraph you quoted points out ("Once you make your edge pick...").
    The total number of edges you can have at game start is indeed:
    species edges + 1 edge from development + up to 2 more that must be compensated by flaws + any you may gain from your profession (AFAIR there is no profession that actually gives you a free edge, but my memory isn't what it used to be ).


    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Originally posted by Champions Guru
    What PDF are you talking about? I don't see a link to one or an attachment. Help!
    Originally posted by PGoodman13
    So I wrote one up, and asked a few people to proof-read it for me before I made it into a PDF and unleased it on the world.
    We are at the 'proof-reading before making it into a PDF' stage right now.

  12. #12
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    Originally posted by RaconteurX
    Your example looks good, but there is a discrepancy in the section on Professional Development. You give Joel the Devotion flaw when he is entitled to Skill Focus: Craftsman as part of his professional package. Every character begins with two Edges, and can have up to two more if they take a Flaw for each additional Edge selected. A Flaw is gained only if you select an additional Edge in either step of Development.
    You might want to go back and look at that again, Michael, since I can't find anything in the Player's Guide to support it. I just got through with a PC generation session last night and remember this part pretty distinctly. That and I don't think my reading comprehension, bad dyslexia day or not, is that bad...though some days I wonder.
    Patrick Goodman -- Tilting at Windmills

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    Beyond the Final Frontier: CODA Star Trek RPG Support

  13. #13
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    Originally posted by Sea Tyger
    That was dealt with in the original errata thread. A character only begins with one edge, purchased at any stage of development. Additional edges beyond 1 must be bought by taking a flaw.
    It is? I couldn't find anything on this in the errata thread, but I also thought it was fairly clearly stated in the PG. If you could provide a pointer within the errata for me to look at when I'm not quite so foggy, I'd be most grateful.
    PG is correct in his example.
    This is enormously gratifying to my ego.
    Patrick Goodman -- Tilting at Windmills

    "I dare you to do better." -- Captain Christopher Pike

    Beyond the Final Frontier: CODA Star Trek RPG Support

  14. #14
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    This is not generating the flurry of resonses I'd hoped for....

    Originally emailed to Patrick by Lancer
    >> Doing the later only after the professional development (as you did) can have a major impact on the chargen. If you had choosen Engineering Certificate right at the start you would have gained a Specialty in each of your engineering skills for free! <<

    > I don't completely agree with this. For instance, there's nothing in the wording of the Engineering Certificate ability that says that you get a specialty in all your Engineering skills for free; giving those (many) specialties away during character generation violates the spirit of the rules, in my opinion as a Narrator. <

    "When aquiring a new Engineering skill, the engineer automatically gains one skill specialty of his choice." (PG, p.70, Engineering Certification)

    The only way I can read the wording "automatically" is as "without paying a skill pick for it". And as it says "when aquiring a new skill" the order of things makes a difference, as it nowhere tells you to gain a Specialty in each skill you already have once you choose this ability, but only for those you aquire once you have the Engineering certificate.
    After having talked with some people and re-reading that section of the rules again, I'm beginning to reconsider my position on this. It would seem that beginning engineers are expected to have those specilaties. However, this really shafts the character who takes a different Tier 1 Professional Ability, and only get his Engineering Certification on a later advancement. The two most likely Professional Development packages for starship engineers give you all three Engineering skills as part of the package. If you go a different route and choose to get the Engineering Certification ability at a later time, it's a rip-off since you can't take advantage of one of the key facets of the special ability.

    It's this reason, if no other, that I probably won't be changing that portion of the example. It just doesn't feel right to me. If I could get some official clarification, it would be most appreciated. In the meantime, Narrators, please feel free to chime in with 'This is how I'd do it" posts.
    > Even if I didn't feel that way, there's nothing that says one way or the other about when Professional Abilities should be selected, <

    I'll have to disagree with you again. If you follow the steps on page 20-21, together with the sidebars that point to the relevant chapters you will be guided to the chapter on professions (right after choosing your species and before everything else), that clearly tells you that you get a profeesional ability once you choose a profession (p. 52, end of 2nd paragraph).
    I still maintain that there's nothing to stop me, during the process of character creation, from saying, "Ah, hell, I forgot something, I need to go back and retrofit this before we start to play." In short, I maintain that there's no particular reason to choose professional abilities in a certain order. We won't get into my opinion of the summary on pp. 20-21.
    While I see your point about the character creation process being neither well organized, nor explained in enough detail, I think you might be giving it even less credit than it deserves.
    I'll take your word for it.
    Patrick Goodman -- Tilting at Windmills

    "I dare you to do better." -- Captain Christopher Pike

    Beyond the Final Frontier: CODA Star Trek RPG Support

  15. #15
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    Originally posted by Champions Guru
    What PDF are you talking about? I don't see a link to one or an attachment. Help!
    There's not a PDF file right now, Guru. There should, however, be links to two separate RTF files in the first post of this thread. It's these two files that we're referring to (primarily the file chargen-example.rtf).
    Patrick Goodman -- Tilting at Windmills

    "I dare you to do better." -- Captain Christopher Pike

    Beyond the Final Frontier: CODA Star Trek RPG Support

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