"CODA characters are too tough" seems to be coming up a lot in discussions recently. Given that this wasn't my play experience, I'd like to see where this might be coming from.
Can we get some examples from peoples' series?
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"CODA characters are too tough" seems to be coming up a lot in discussions recently. Given that this wasn't my play experience, I'd like to see where this might be coming from.
Can we get some examples from peoples' series?
It comes fronm the big shift from ICON to CODA. In ICON a sword hit or a pistol shot is potentially lethal. In CODA, with wound levels based on a vitality score and strength mod, an average person can take 42 points of damage. A tough character can take more than twice that amount.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King
In a game where a sword does 2D6+3 that's too tough. Especially in compasion to the TV series. Even Spock could sufferer life threatening injuries from a musket shot on the show.
Gimme some examples from you game.
Will you accpet examples for LOTR? While I didn't run CODA Trek, I did run CODA LOTR, and I think the armed cobmat rules are the same, so the examples would be relevant.
I think tony's initial comment makes the point. If there's no chance of getting pasted by a sword or old-style slugthrower...you're too robust. More realistic would be some kind of stun and wound damage track -- the vitality+str mod=wounds taken; stun set up as per the original system.
This allows for a knock down/drag out fist fight, but means the character can't just decide to wander into a sword fight figuring they can realisticaly take a few hits before they're in trouble.
Another option would be some kind of stamina test for each hit or level of damage passed to see if you pass out or worse.
If you're playing Starfleet characters properly, they shouldn't be set to "blow him into dust" on their phasers. When they are not, the characters -- even average ones -- can simply take oo much damage. We've had several chaka duels in an early camapign where the characters were hakcing away at each other for the better part of an hour before the combat was settled. Unlikely, at best, and took away from the believability of the scene. (This is, I suspect, a hold-over from the writer's work at WOTC before Decipher took over Trek. There's a lot of d20 elements to CODA...but improved.) Other characters have taken a couple thermal phaser shots (KILL setting) before secumbing. Fist fights..? Fugedaboutit...
Yes, you can simply stun people. But in a real fight, the damage goes beyond unlikely and becomes unbelievable.
I think this is less a problem with the spce combat, where the ships can take a beating, despite shileds maintaining strength. It doesn't capture the one shot and BLAM character of some episodes, but that doesn't bother me.
How many attacks are your characters doing in a round?
You shouldn't have to empty a clip into someone to take them out of the fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King
Having the drop on someone isn't much of a threat when they've got 40+ hit points and your first action can't stop them from drawing their phaser.
Go with someone with a high VIT and a STR bonus and you can double that amount. Fights between Klingons look a lot more like D&D than Star Trek.
No, seriously. In a straight up CODA swordfight or fisticuffs, how many times are you attacking the other character per round?Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyg
No seriously, do the math. Stop redefining the terms for everything. Look at the weapon damages, 1d6+1, 1d6+2, 2d6, 2d6+3. There is no way to take someone down with a single attack.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King
You shouldn't have to need 3-4 bullets to drop an average person.
Saying that you can take multiple action penalties to get extra attacks and drop someone in two round by making 3 attack a round isn't proof that the game system is dangerous.
High Level D&D character get multiple attacks too.
You're still not going to take someone out of a fight with a single hit, or knock them out like on TV by knocking them over the head with the butt of a phaser pistol.
I had trouble with that too. I remember for instance that I found the damage for a shotgun blast ridiculously low (ok it's not a weapon that might be used a lot in Star Trek, but at least it's in our frame of reference).
What I mostly missed from ICON in CODA were the "Stun points", allowing for a different scale of damages between weapon combat and fistfight (plus phasers set on stun, nerve pinches, etc). That, and the description of what happened when a character lost a wound level (dropping to the ground, losing consciousness, etc).
That's the sort of thing that can rather easily be added to CODA without rewriting the system much (here is a suggestion I made about that a long time ago).
Don't remember and it wouldn't matter if I did. Yo don't like that we think the character are too tough and not only will you not bend on the argument, you're simply going to argument to pi$$ off those you're speaking with...a terrible rhetorical device, BTW.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King
I agree with C5 that it could be improved fairly easily. I threw together house rules to cover this particular aspect of CODA. Other than that, I like the system; it's one of my favorites. Enough so that, despite finding the setting in desperate need of a reboot (yes...not a big Trek fan), I have been running a Trek campaign for the last five years or so.
Combat works fine, unless you start messing with the differing styles, then the house rules and posted ideas on "improving" it tend to get overly mechanical and complex. Choose your style -- if it's a move or combination that is taught ordinarily (say, a wrist lock and throw as in aikido, or a the wrist lock/shot to the jaw/legsweep with shoulder drop/coup de grace to the side of the head move from that Spetnatz craziness [can't remember the name]) give them either a bonus (+1 throw for aikido) or a number of moves that are part of the combo (four for the abovementioned move.)
Damage seems to be the weakness in the combat -- the characters either can take too much, or weapons are incredibly underpowered. Anyone who has been in fights regularly can tell you -- sometimes, you can take a hell of a beat down and keep going; other times, you're wondering why you're tasting floor while your buddies are yeeling "Dude!"
I'd be surprised if 5 adv starfleet characters were doing anything less than 3 attacks per round in a regular fight. -5 is not that much for starting CODA characters, and it's usually still worth it to try at -10. I don't myself see much difference between k.o. ing someone with five attacks in one round or one attack in one round, but that might depend on whether you're narrating it literally as five attacks or not.
Hm... what if marginal or complete successes do listed damage (or LD+1d6), superior successes did max listed damage (or MLD+6), and extraordinary successes do double listed damage (or LDx2+6)?
Or... 1d6 or 2d6 damage per degree of success, with each weapon possessing a specific damage modifier? For phasers, you might still need a chart, but for melee weapons you could even simplify it further using the UA damage calculation guidelines: +X for sharp, +Y for big, and +Z for heavy (so a bat'leth gets +X and +Y), maybe in categories of +1 (a little), +3 (moderately) and +6 (very). Parry traits could be described the same way too.
I'm with you Tatterdemalion King, I have run many sessions of Coda Trek and haven't run into the players being or feeling too powerful. Most of the PC's feel just the opposite.
Ive had no problems with the amount of damage a chaarcter can take.
In my game I introduced Critical hits.
A character must make a Stamina reaction (Critical hit table) test from the moment he is hit with a superior susccess or higher.
I just did some small conversion of the combat rules, like adding a new combat moves, attack of opportunities, and so on.
I know it doesn't speed up combat but it makes it more dangerous and more intresting..
It's funny how many people say that theye system works fine, then go on to explain how they altered the system as proof.
You're proving the reverse. If things were fine, you wouldn't be upping the damages now would you?
When I ran LOTR I was aware of the damage upgrade for that from GOB's fanzine and went one further. For each 5 points over what was needed to hit I had the attack inflict 1 Would Level over an above the damage roll.
And yes, I treat 3 attacks as three attacks, not one. Because, they are. The use three actions, have three damage rolls, can have effects independent of each other, and can use three times the charges/bullets if fired from a weapon.
Still, wimpy damage.
Well my Pc's are terrified of fights because the bad guys have disintagrator guns and tend to use them. Either way most of my combat junkies ahve a martial arts style that has a knock out blow that sees lots of use. I agree that modern weapon damage is a tad low but meh it dosent come up enough for me to really care.