Question about Damage

[C5]

I think that the difference is already taken into account in the amount of damage. For instance, if a phaser shot takes you 10 wound points (very low setting, rather easy to heal), the same amount of damage can be reached with at least three punches from an average human (and one particularly successful punch from a Klingon). This seems rather comparable.
Similarly, if a single phaser shot puts you Incapacited, you'll have to be pummeled consequently to reach the same Wound level (let's say, four or five Klingon punches and a dozen from an average human) - and, as ImperialOne pointed out, you can be in a very bad shape after such pummelage.

I think I'm definitively gonna settle for the house rule of requesting a Stamina Test everytime a player loses a wound level to stay conscious - just have to adjust a correct TN (don't have my books at hand for the account on being at work ).

[Profit]

Why not?

What do you mean why not? Have you ever seen anyone killed with punches in any ST material? People dying from punches just isn't in the paradigm!

Of course you can die from a punch in real life. A fraction of the pummel series characters recieve in a typical brawl would probably hospitalise you for a long time...!

[C5]

Originally posted by Profit
What do you mean why not? Have you ever seen anyone killed with punches in any ST material? People dying from punches just isn't in the paradigm!

Well you never know... these RedShirts semt always so fragile...

IIRC, in one episode where Kirk has to anger Spock to free him from the influence of some spores, Kirk states that he's afraid to die from the hands of Spock (and I think Spock stops just before one last punch that looked very dangerous from the way Kirk backed away - but I'm not sure of that scene).

And of course, this isn't a punch, but when Worf snaps Weyoun's head, I think it's definitely Unarmed Combat involved nonetheless ... Similarly, Data was able to strangle a Borg to death in Descent. So some Unarmed Combat attacks can definitely kill in the ST universe.

[ImperialOne]

I just love our message boards here; there is enough Trek knowledge/recollection to cite a precedence to support almost anything... more power to us!

Charles

C5 stated:
Well you never know... these RedShirts semt always so fragile...

IIRC, in one episode where Kirk has to anger Spock to free him from the influence of some spores, Kirk states that he's afraid to die from the hands of Spock (and I think Spock stops just before one last punch that looked very dangerous from the way Kirk backed away - but I'm not sure of that scene).

And of course, this isn't a punch, but when Worf snaps Weyoun's head, I think it's definitely Unarmed Combat involved nonetheless ... Similarly, Data was able to strangle a Borg to death in Descent. So some Unarmed Combat attacks can definitely kill in the ST universe.

[Profit]

So some Unarmed Combat attacks can definitely kill in the ST universe.

No one's arguing that. Data bonks borg in "first contact" as well, remember? (And strangely enough, they fall like corn for the sickle)

General "brawling moves" (punches and throws, there are seldom kicks for some reason- how I would love for them to throw in some good martial arts!) however, hardly scratch anyone, but occasionally knocks them out cold.

This is impossible to emulate under the present CODA system. My idéa is to separate the damage (use '/' for "stun" damage, and a full 'X' for "kill" damage for example) and make a stamina check after each damage to stay on your feet.

However, even with these changes I do not like the CODA damage system. Using any kind of "hit points" is distasteful, IMHO. Better go for a system like the one in WoD or Paranoia.

[C5]

Originally posted by Profit
This is impossible to emulate under the present CODA system. My idéa is to separate the damage (use '/' for "stun" damage, and a full 'X' for "kill" damage for example) and make a stamina check after each damage to stay on your feet.

That's why I'd like to have some input from the designers on why the combat rules became so succint in CODA (while the system usually improves a lot over ICON IMHO). I agree that Star Trek adventures are not supposed to be centered around fights, however, given how many brawls we've been given to see in the series, I think it's not unreasonable to assume some players and narrators would like to re act some of these in their adventures. Wich, with the current rules, assumes either some amount of house ruling, or having the players eventually draw their phasers and stunning everyone to stop the brawl.
I'm just curious whether there is some hidden agenda behind these rules (like : "Phasers are the best weapon in any combat, don't bother with anything else" ), or if some extended rules are due to appear in upcoming extensions.

[ImperialOne]

I wouldn't expect extended/expanded rules from Decipher along these lines (Starships yes). However, simply a best guess based on the intent to keep rules codified within the PG and NG. There is nothing wrong, however, with creating and using your own.

IIMO, I believe there is far less brawling in the TNG/DS9/Voyager eras then the "primitive" eras of TOS and Enterprise. Note, I like TOS/Enterprise, but I think the show's writers deemphasize brawling (outside of Klingon duels) relative to TOS/Enterprise on purpose.

Charles

[Greg Smith]

Originally posted by ImperialOne
I
IIMO, I believe there is far less brawling in the TNG/DS9/Voyager eras then the "primitive" eras of TOS and Enterprise. Note, I like TOS/Enterprise, but I think the show's writers deemphasize brawling (outside of Klingon duels) relative to TOS/Enterprise on purpose.

Charles

I don't recall many brawls in Enterprise. But the Klingon boarding actions in DS9 heavily involved HTH combat.

Since the game is supposed to represent all eras of Trek and all possible settings within the milieu, I think there should have been a more comprehensive HTH system.

The loss of the martial arts styles was a mistake IMHO. It is far more interesting to have 'Sunrise slash' with the chaka than the non-descript edge fron the Coda PG.

[C5]

I'd suggest the following for the damage from Unarmed Combat :

Each time a player loses a wound level in an unarmed combat, he must make a Stamina Test to stay conscious. If the character fails the test, he loses consciousness. I'd suggest the following table :

Wound level............TN...........Loss of consciousness
Dazed......................5............1D3 rounds
Injured....................10...........2D6 rounds
Wounded................15...........1D6 minutes
Incapacited.............20...........1D6*10 minutes
Near Death.............25...........1D3 hours

If some successful first aid or medicine is performed upon the character, he automatically regains consciousness.

If a character loses all wound levels from Unarmed Combat damage (he "dies"), he automatically loses consciousness for 1D6 hours (unless of course some healing is performed on him in the meantime). Once awakened, he'll regain 1D6 wound levels (1D6*Health HP). This can be tweaked if he suffered another type of damage during the fight (for instance, if he suffered one or two stabs).

With this house rule, I try to keep the single scale of damage of CODA and reflect the fact that Unarmed Combat damage can really harm someone (something implied in CODA with the very low damage inflicted by Unarmed attacks IMHO).
Any comments welcome

[RaconteurX]

Originally posted by ImperialOne
When Worf snaps Weyoun's head, I think it's definitely Unarmed Combat involved...

And probably a Courage point or three additionally, in order to guarantee an Extraordinary Success. Or perhaps Worf has a rare unpublished edge: "Killing Blow".



Michael

[aelius]

I use a varient of the rules presented in Cyberpunk 2020 by R. Talsorian Games.
The martial arts styles in Cberpunk can be easily converted. Just use the normal CODA rules but add the maneuvers from Cyberpunk. The styles simply give bonuses to certain maneuvers. In my conversion you buy skill levels in a style which gives a plus 1 per level to unarmed combat skill, max 1/2 unarmed combat skill.
As to the knockout problem I require a Stamina check with a TN of 10 with the appropriate penalty for the wound level. I also use the hit location chart form Cyberpunk with the rules that head shots do 2X damage and shots to the limbs require a stamina check with a TN of 5 per the number of wound levels sustained.
Example: victim with a health of 6 takes 6 points to the arm, a stamina check of 5 is rquired. If 18 points had been taken the TN would have been 15, etc..
Failure of this check severs or otherwise mangles the limb to the point it requires replacement.
And to anyone who says thats too gory and realistic for Star Trek, I say tell it to Nog.

[C5]

Any other ideas, guys and gals ?

[C5]

Err... bump

Like I said on the Unarmed Combat Thread, that's one part of CODA wich I really find unclear.

BTW, I'd like to know whether LOTR had some more precise rules on the subject.

[IceGiant]

The damage track is similar to the one used in Mechwarrior 2nd ed. All you do is keep track of armed damage and unarmed damage seperately. Like shade in half a box for non-lethal damage, and shade in a full box for lethal. Or something similar.
Not too complicated actually.

The point i believe (IMHO) is too keep combat like the shows, cinematic and mostly secondary to the overall story arc.

[kjakan]

White Wolf's Storyteller system supports Bashing and Lethal Damage (in addition to Aggravated, which is Lethal to humans). This is sounds similar to the approach in MechWarrior, though I'm not familiar with the system.

See (borrow) your closest WW Storyteller book for reference. I suggest Hunter:the Reckoning as the most "human".

A fellow by the handle "Commander Briard Thaden" gave me some good pointers at the Decipher discussion forum.

http://calder.decipher.com/cgi-bin/m...5$4028-19314$3

To sum it up, he suggests applying special effects for:
- called shots to the tune of extra damage or additional penalties.
- surprised enemies (goons) get knocked out by a single successful attack.