How would Starfleet deal with... "the tattletale dilemma"

Pondering new ways to torment my players, I came up with a conundrum to wich I found no conclusion, so I turn to my fellow board-members for help.

The Dominion war rages and everyone is anxious to get the upper hand. Suddenly, the Dominion come upon a new source of intelligence- the Ferengi. Enterprising DaiMons shadow Federaton vessels and fleets, conduct scans, and sell the information to the Dominion.

How would StarFleet deal with this? Would they open fire on Ferengi ships that haven't attacked them? Would they try ruses and such measures?

I believe NATO had a similar problem during the cold war(?), but StarFleet isn't NATO.

"In times of war, the Law falls silent"

I fail to see the dilemma.

These Ferengi would be treated the same way you'd treat any enemy spy. Just because they spy for money instead of some sense of national allegiance, doesn't really change their role in the conflict.

A spy is a spy.

How would you separate spying Ferengi from normal Ferengi?

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Enterprising DaiMons shadow Federaton vessels and fleets, conduct scans, and sell the information to the Dominion.

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Shadowing Federation vessels and fleets would be suspicious enough for a ship CO or task force commander to investigate, especially if it's over an extended period of time...and especially if a number of Starfleet ships start reporting shadows.

Then all they need to do is make the Ferengi spy game unprofitable. :)

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Originally posted by Profit
How would you separate spying Ferengi from normal Ferengi?

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Why bother?

Lock 'em up, send 'em to court. They're free to prove their innocence there. The time and thus the profit they've lost through not participating in the market is probably not worth whatever they make by selling the information to the Dominion.

I believe that there would be very little Starfleet could do directly against any vessel scanning them, as long as that ship remained in neutral territory. The Federation could, however, file an official complaint to the species controlling that space AND to the Ferengi government, treatening to end trade relationships. This would probably make the Ferengi take care of the problem themselves.

I remember watching a JAG episode some years ago that took place during the Kosovo war or shortly after it, when Harm was piloting again.
There was a Lear Jet spying on the U.S. planes that couldn't be shot down because it officially belonged to a news agency in a neutral country.
IIRC, it once even lured a group of pilots deep into enemy territory where they were attacked.
That Ferengi ship of yours could actually have been boarded by Jem'Hadar or Cardassians, so it could be used in the same way.

It is my understanding that the Ferengi doesn't have a government per se, there's just the Grand Nagus and he's just some kind of functionary. (I know how he's sometimes described as some kind of despot, but this IMHO, goes against the Ferengi free-market spirit.)

Anyways, it's sorta more interesting if they don't, and makes the Ferengi much more of a nuisance!

Now- what would be an acceptable solution to the problem for the players?

This message has been removed on request by the
poster

Just a bit o' History here that might muddy the waters: look up the Greer Incident, which prompted "Shoot on Sight: orders to US ships in the Atlantic well before December 7th 1941.

The Greer was helping a British plane try to sink a U-Boat (by scouting her position and maintaining contact with the U-Boat when the British plane went back for more fuel), keep in mind that we were not officially involved in the War yet, and when fired upon by the Nazis (which may well have been a warning shot since the tropedo never hit the Greer by over 100m), she chased the U-Boat around for another two hours and laid something like a dozen or more depth charges down to take the U-Boat out.

It became big news on the homefront as an "unprovoked attack" on the US Ship by the Nazi U-Boat and resulted in the "Shoot on Sight" orders in September. The word "unprovoked" used here apparently means that a ship scouting out your position for enemy vessels is still neutral. Or maybe the truth didn't come out until much later, I don't know that part of it myself.

Isn't the Ferengi in your example doing the same thing as the Greer? However you decide to act here, you should let the PCs know about the Greer, it should be part of their standard HIstory courses at the Academy. If nothing else, it should prompt a lively discussion.

[Edit: spelling error and minor correction]

Shameless Speculation...

Theres also the fact that Grand Nagus Zek was unofficially supporting the Alpha Quadrant, he was always very keen to be around Starfleet, especially Moogies grandson Nog. Earning brownie points with the missus...

Now 'officially' the Ferengi remained neutral. After all there was no reason to get involved, and the Dominion were trading partners (read; targets, just like everybody else). Besides, remaining neutral allows you to be on-side with the eventual winner...

Besides as the 192nd rule of Aquisition states;
"Never cheat a Klingon... Unless you're sure you can get away with it." And helping the Dominion would be against the Federation/Klingon alliance.
Neither should we forget that the 62nd rule states; "The riskier the road, the greater the profit." By far the most relevantrule applied to this discussion. Nor should we forget rule 21; "Never place friendship above profit."

Less Shameless Speculation...

However, the 177th rule states; "Know your enemies... But do business with them, always." and the 121st rule states; "Everything is for Sale, even friendship."

I have abslutely no doubt in my mind that individual Ferengi showed no qualms in selling information. however. A regular information source? Or a 100% trustworthy information source. This is a bit too far fetched for the Ferengi as portrayed in the shows...

Besides, that would require them to pick a side, thus ensuring a little risk should your chosen side fail to win. Now while the portrayal of Zek was clear on who he wanted to win (no matter how it might affect business, we cannot forget that he was under the sway of Moogie... Who had rather... different ideas on what a Ferengi should be.

To be totally honest, my opinion has always been the opposite. that the Ferengi were neutral, but covertly supplied the Alliance with Inteligence and support as was deemed excusable or convenient. But that is only my own opinion...

No Speculation at all.

So then theres the issue of Moogie. Lets face it, the moment the Dominion capyured her this whole concept goes up in the air. After all, none of us can disagree that Zek was under her influence. And as such this event might well have been the turning point on 'official' Ferengi involvement...

The 48th rule states; "The bigger the smile, the sharper the knife." Have you noticed that theVorta were usually always smiling? I bet the Ferengi did!

Now while indiviual Daimon might not have supported Zek and his 'progressive' reforms, they would however be acting alone (or at least without official sanction). Therefore there would be little problem if said Starfleet ship was forced to destroy this Ferengi Spy.

Theres no 'officail rule for it, but there are plenty of gaps in the rules. I wouldn't be surprised to find that there was a rule stating that;
"If your caught doing something illegal, your on your own."

Basically, if your Daimon is caught and his complicity proved. The Ferengi would deny all knowledge, even of an officially sanctioned mission.

Your best bet here, is to study the rules, just as all Ferengi are required to do (they are plastered all over the internet, just look up 'The Rules of Aquisition' or buy the book). And to interpret them as this Daimon would do. beware they are quite contradictory. Just like the Ferengi. I think it is far more likely that this Daimon is a double agent. Selling or trading information to both sides in a very freindly manner, which WOULD offer a moral dilemma as they are forced to blow a friend up!

However nobody can deny the 35th rule;
"War is good for business."

Of course, Starfleet could take a super tough stance like George Bush Jr. and say something like:

"Those who are our enemies, and those who support our enemies, in any capacity, will be dealt with swiftly!"

Mind you, that is not a direct GB quote...just a gist.

If the Ferengi Alliance is smart, they would immediately separate themselves from those renegade Ferengi who would bring the Alpha Quadrant to ruin. The renegades who are providing tactical/strategic information to the Dominion would then be on their own, with no support from the Ferengi Trade Commission. And if the Ferengi wished to stay in the Federation's good graces, the FTC would be quick to point out just who those renegades are. "They went thattaway!"


And of course, Starfleet would send a couple of Akiras to smash the renegades' marauders to so much space dust, and capture the Daimon's and their crews. Then comes the question of POW's, and perpaps repatriating such vermin to the Ferengi Alliance. Or, the Federation could try the Ferengi renegades as full fledged spies. Better yet, let the Klingons try them....at least, they seem to have DEATH PENALTIES for spies. HEE HEE HEE!

Respectfully,
General Chang

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Originally posted by General Chang
Of course, Starfleet could take a super tough stance like George Bush Jr. and say something like:

"Those who are our enemies, and those who support our enemies, in any capacity, will be dealt with swiftly!"

Mind you, that is not a direct GB quote...just a gist.

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We are talking about the same touchy-feely starfleet, always trying to talk over fighting everytime and not using any unfair technological advantage until the siytuation is so desperate that it is no longer an advantage, that we have been watching on TV for the last 35 years?

hands up who thinks that Starfleet would really take this hard-line view... (Starfleet rather than individuals and rogue Federation secret services)...

"rogue federation secret service"

Hmm.... I can feel an adventure seed coing on.... hmmm...... I'll post it here when it's cooked.

Very good insights so far my friends, I thank you.

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Originally posted by Profit
"rouge federation secret service"

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Oh, that is sooo not their color. :)

Well, remember the starfleet in Insurrection. Also, didnt sp.8472 say they had already infiltrated? The militant attitude starfleet has gained could be their doing, as a way to harm the federations reputations.

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at?

Well, touchy-feely or not, Starfleet would take exception to activities which endanger Starfleet personnel. Any Ferengi caught would probably be dealt with within the limits of Starfleet regs and Federation law. Of course, a CO who has lost friends in the war may not be so linient (sp.?) . Maybe even go on a renegade Ferengi hunting trip. and Sect. 31 may do something about it too or use it. All sorts of adventures could come from this situation. But the Feceration, if they found out about it, would probably try diplomacy first, then "encouraging" Ferengi ships to keep their distance, and then firing on them and boarding them.

What i was saying is: Starfleet isnt as touchy-feely as it was before. One possible reason is, it has been infiltrated by a species the borg call 8472.

Hello, all,

It is also important to remember that Starfleet did start taking a somewhat more militaristic stance when the Borg were still a threat. That is why they created the "warship" defiant, and other vessels from the ASDB such as the Akira, Steamrunner, and Norway Classes. Not to mention, there is also the Promethius...with its multivector assault mode. Note: The capability is not referred to as multivector exploration mode...it is multivector assault mode.

Starfleet may end up getting back to actual exploration now that the Romulans, the last of the actual major Threat powers in the Alpha Quadrant, have started negotiations for a real peace.

However, this thread deals with treacherous renegade Ferengi. Starfleet has lost enough personnel, resources, and worlds in the Dominion War. IMHO, one would think that the Federation would
take stronger measures to insure its own security after the DW.
If that involves a "shoot first and ask questions later" approach, then Starfleet has every right to do so, given that the Federation has had major encounters with The Klingons, The Borg, and the Dominion Alliance (Dominion, Cardassians, and Breen). If the Federation does not adopt tougher policies to ensure its own security, so long as such policies do not threaten the life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness that its citizens enjoy, then it leaves itself open to yet another threat.

So, who's gonna miss a few renegade Ferengi if they should happen to accidentally run across a stray Photon Torpedo? :D

Again though, it is your game. If your players can come up with creative ways of dealing with the Ferengi, that does not involve firing a single shot, then hats off to them. Just remember that deep down inside, the Ferengi are cowards, and even the threat of violence directed against them is usually enough to cow them into submission. (Of course, there can be that one slightly misinterpretted order.)

FED CAPTAIN: Ferengi Marauder, this is Captain so-and-so of the Federation Starship Wunderbar. You are ordered to stand down your ship and prepare for boarding.

DAI-MON: This is DaiMon Such-and-such of the Ferengi Cruiser (language ininterpretable). What gives you the right to detain my ship?!!

FED CAPTAIN: We have detected that you have been transmitting fleet movements, and other vital Starfleet information to forces hostile to the Federation. This information is classified, and that makes you spies.

DAI-MON: You have no proof, hew-mon! Now let us go, or...

FED CAPTAIN: Tactical, if they should even flinch, fire a warning shot across her nose!

TAC OFFICER: Aye, sir! Quantum Torpedo standing by.

DAI-MON: The hew-mon is CRAZY! Get us out of here! Maximum Warp!

FED CAPTAIN: FIRE!

The Wunderbar fires a Quantum Torpedo at the escaping Marauder, scoring a direct hit, collapsing her hull, and detonating her warp core.

TAC OFFICER: Oops! (looks sheepishly around the bridge, and then back to the Captain.) I'm sorry, did you say "across her nose"? I thought you said "up her nose", sir.

FED CAPTAIN: (shrugs shoulders) Honest mistake. Didn't catch it myself until it was too late.

The Captain looks about the bridge again, seeing the crew is carrying out their duties as if nothing happened.

FED CAPTAIN: Ok, I'm gonna just go into my Ready Room now, and , ummm, catch up on some paperwork. .......ummm......yeah.
(Innocently whistles as he walks toward the Ready Room.) Umm...tac officer, you have the bridge.

TAC OFFICER: (restraining a devilish grin) Aye, sir.

The Fed Captain enters the ready room, and the Tac Officer casually walks toward the center seat. He slowly sits down, takes in the view, and leans forward, allowing his devilish grin to bear.

TAC OFFICER: Helm, let's go cornhole us some renegade Ferengi. :D


Irreverently,
General Chang

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Originally posted by General Chang
However, this thread deals with treacherous renegade Ferengi. Starfleet has lost enough personnel, resources, and worlds in the Dominion War. IMHO, one would think that the Federation would take stronger measures to insure its own security after the DW.

If that involves a "shoot first and ask questions later" approach, then Starfleet has every right to do so, given that the Federation has had major encounters with The Klingons, The Borg, and the Dominion Alliance (Dominion, Cardassians, and Breen). If the Federation does not adopt tougher policies to ensure its own security, so long as such policies do not threaten the life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness that its citizens enjoy, then it leaves itself open to yet another threat.

So, who's gonna miss a few renegade Ferengi if they should happen to accidentally run across a stray Photon Torpedo? :D

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So basically, you would be the Nazi U-Boat to the Ferengi's Greer?

I find it interesting that no one has commented on the bit of history about the Greer I posted earlier, as it does bear some relevance to the discussion and places some hard choices in the characters direction. After all, blowing them up because they are perceived to be an obstacle is kind of an easy way out isn't it, and there are the vaunted Federation Principles to deal with: Are there rules during warfare? When does the time come (if ever) to dispense with the principles of the Federation? Does loosing the war justify that? There is the seed of a great story in that concept alone, because principles which are not adhered to when inconvenient aren't principles at all are they; in that case they are merely affectations, and the Federation is made up of summertime diplomats and fair-weather pacifists mouthing empty words about their lofty ideals.

How about this: Other than blowing them out of space, is there any other solution? Disable the Ferengi engine/weapons, or perhaps simply her long range sensors etc. and move off. Or more drastically, hack into their transponder and change it to a compromised Federation frequency. Why does "They are traitors (to the Federation they don't belong to?) so blow them up" have to be the answer?

Thank you for saying that, Publius.

I too think there's great potential here, I just need to figure out how to resolve it.

I do suspect that Gen. Changs "gunboat" approach would be... less than satisfactory. What if they happen to blow up some innocent Ferengi?

We must also note two things: 1) There is no "renegade" Ferengi- they just have a different set of moral rules. 2) No actual crime is committed until the Ferengi sells the information, probably after it has left the vincinity of the Fed. ship! Which means that a Fed. captain can never "prove" anything there and then....

For resolution:

If the situation has not come up yet, but will in an upcoming adventure: I would definitely have someone mention the Greer incident, or have the players read about the Greer incident before they come to play for that session. The Captain, if a PC, should be notified by someone that this is a possible breach of Federation principles.

If the Situation has already happened and the Players fired on the Ferengi (assuming that fatalities occurred): A War Crimes trial is called by the Ferengi, or the neutral third party whose system the fight happened in (lets say First Federation space, since they seem to be much more technically advanced than the Fed). Perhaps, it is the Federation itself which has placed the PCs on trial. The players must defend their actions, but 'aiding' them will be "Ends justify means" types like Section 31, which would not have had a problem offing those Ferengi (and are very much behind the scenes in their support of course), or one of Admiral Leyton's old cronies who managed to escape the purge after Leyton's failed coup and is now at the head of the "make Starfleet more military" faction and makes the argument that it "had to be done".

If you really want to highlight the Greer, have an NPC be a descendant of one of the Greer's crew. Perhaps he is reading a PADD on that incident and the reason the PCs notice it, is that the NPC is known to dislike reading and is not known to do it on his down-time.

If your players are curious or paranoid, have the NPC mention enough details to pique that and they should take it the rest of the way in doing their own research as they try to figure out why said NPC is acting in such an "odd" fashion.

Regards,
CKV.

LOL! Please, don't get me wrong. I fully agreee that my gunboat approach would be very very unsatisfying. The thing to remember is that regardless of the species representing the Federation (except maybe the Vulcans), basically everyone is human at heart...with human-like feelings and flaws. Suppose that one of the players had a close relative who was killed as a result of some unscrupulous Ferengi (I fully realize that "unscrupulous" is a very relative term for the Big Eared Galoots! :D ) selling some information to the Dominion. That particular officer would be under a lot of pressure to keep his/her personal feelings out of the matter, regardless of his/her rigorous professional training as a Starfleet Officer. The little skit I offered earlier was another parody of mine...I shoulda disclaimed that particular piece. :D

In truth, if I were a GM, regardless of my predisposition toward more action based scenarios, I would probably want my players to find a more creative means of resolving the scenario.

And the Greer approach would be cool too...if there were an attack conducted on a Ferengi vessel without cause...that could make for some seriously cool court-martial drama. The players would then be caught up in a consequential adventure to either defend their captain, or put him/her down the tubes for violating the very principles that have kept the Federation getting its arse kicked for years. (That last half of the sentence is offered sarcastically btw. :D )

Yes, I am very action oriented, but a little intrigue never hurt. Forces the players to think with their heads and not their ordnance.

Respectfully,
General Chang

A typically inventive Starfleet solution to the problem would be to allow the Ferengi vessel(s) to shadow them, feigning ignorance of them while attempting to hack into the Ferengi's radio frequency. Then listen in on Ferengi-Dominion intelligence comms and adjust one's own fleet/ship movements accordingly. This could be done right from the start or saved for some big battle that events are building up to. Just when the Dominion are starting to depend on Ferengi 'intelligence' (never a good thing IMHO :-D), the Federation utilises their knowledge to launch a surprise attack completely contrary to what the Ferengi said they would do. Section 31 could be involved in securing the information and also ensuring that it is only used on the eve on the big battle, i.e. no 'narrow-minded' starship captains are to use such intel during small engagements/encounters, which would risk revealing that the Federation has tapped into the Ferengi-Dominion comms (risking the entire operation).

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Originally posted by Inajira
Section 31 could be involved in securing the information and also ensuring that it is only used on the eve on the big battle, i.e. no 'narrow-minded' starship captains are to use such intel during small engagements/encounters, which would risk revealing that the Federation has tapped into the Ferengi-Dominion comms (risking the entire operation).

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And there-in lies the most common mis-conception about Section 31. People seem to think that Section 31 work with Starfleet or the Federation. When in actuality they are far more like a rogue Federation element. Completely seperate fro both Starfleet and the Federation, they ensure that they are un-encumbered by further commitments and look only upon the bigger picture, and their manipulation and control over its outcome...

The sort of proposal you suggest is far more in line with the remit of Starfleet Intelligence, while Section 31's remit is to save the Federation in spite of itself, and at any cost.

The bottom line is. Section 31 are the bad guys. They say power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Section 31 have absolute power within the Federation. Cloaked ships, advanced tech, all the starship codes and specifications, agents within agents within agents, most of whom dont even know they are working for Section 31, some might have an inkling of whats going on, but rest assured that Section 31 only lets them see enough of the picture to come to a completely errant conclusion. Think J.Edgar Hoover of the FBI over James Bond of MI6. They are not portrayed as the uber-cool secret organisation, and 99% of the encounters will be controlled and manipulated by the handler, and many of them would actually be in opposition to the Starfleet.

At least thats the impression the 3 episodes and 4 books conveyed.

Your Milage May Vary, and if Starfleet Intelligence isn't good enough for you, go for your life...

I have to disagree.

Section 31 would infiltrate the Ferengi (i.e. a threat) and destroy them at all costs. Yes, this is very Un-Federation-ish.

However…

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Originally posted by Dan Gurden
And there-in lies the most common mis-conception about Section 31. People seem to think that Section 31 work with Starfleet or the Federation. When in actuality they are far more like a rogue Federation element. Completely seperate fro both Starfleet and the Federation, they ensure that they are un-encumbered by further commitments and look only upon the bigger picture, and their manipulation and control over its outcome...

The sort of proposal you suggest is far more in line with the remit of Starfleet Intelligence, while Section 31's remit is to save the Federation in spite of itself, and at any cost.

The bottom line is. Section 31 are the bad guys. …

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Section 31 works within Starfleet 9 times out of 10. It’s that 1 time, when the Federation and it’s associates are…

UNWILLING TO GET THEIR HANDS DIRTY.

Section 31 takes care of that 1 time.

I guess I see Section 31 more as a rogue branch of Starfleet, but don't see them as having massive amounts of resources (top of the line starships, cloaking devices etc.). To me, they aren't as ruthless as the intelligence services of the Romulans and Cardassians, but are willing to make extreme decisions for the 'greater good', like 'some lives lost now, more lives saved later' that blind hero-types disapprove of. But then again I've only read one book on S31, so YMMV...